Weird Email From Pseudo Non Christian Trying To Break My Mom Down

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This guy has been emailing my mom

basically trying to logically trap her out of her faith. Tonight she asked me for help. In turn, I ask for help from the Phamily. This isnt a catholic/protestant issue as much as a christian/agnostic issue. Any help is appreciated. Considering his tone with my mom in recent emails I have no problem going to swords and blowing him away. Here is his post.

[quote]Yes, there are several references to the devil/Satan in the Bible. But many of the passages that people assume are about the
devil/Satan never really say that. For example, I defy you to go to the Garden of Eden story and show me where it says that Satan was there. It doesn't. It says "the serpent." Over the years, theologians and artists have interpreted the reference to the
serpent to be Satan. It has entered popular interpretation, but that's not what the Bible actually says. As for Lucifer, the "name"
is used one time — that's it — in the entire Bible, a small passage in the book of Isaiah. But sometimes the Hebrew word is translated as "morning star." Many of our notions about Satan as a fallen angel simply cannot be found in the Bible. Yes, the book of Job — one of the oldest books of the Bible, according to most biblical scholars — does make mention of Satan having a conversation with God. But if you read the book carefully and not through the eyes of the Judeo-Christian tradition, you will see that the character actually acts as an agent of God, not as an adversary.

The problem is that there is not just one consistent story in the Bible about such matters. Or even about such matters as the
afterlife. The early Hebrews didn't believe in an afterlife, certainly not in the notion of heaven and hell. At most, they believe in a shadowy existence known as Sheol. The notions of heaven and hell as came to be a part of the Judeo-Christian tradition came
about only during and following the Babylonian captivity, where the Jews were exposed to Zoroastrianism, with its dualistic ideas of
heaven and hell. Indeed, many of the notions of good and evil came out of Zoroastrianism. Furthermore, I could show you some obscure passages in the Bible that speak as if there is more than one god and that the Hebrew God (YHWH) is just one of many, albeit the best. I could show you passages where it talks in terms that seem much more like Greek mythology, where the gods have sex with humans and spawn a race of supermen. What's the point? Only this: There is not one consistent story. It's
many stories that over the years have been woven together in different ways and with different interpretations.

You say that you believe that everyone has an emptiness they try to fill but can't until they allow that which is beyond reason to rule
their life (a very Kierkegaardian viewpoint, by the way), that is, until they are ruled by faith. But how do we know that that which
you or anyone else calls "God" truly exists and is not just a wish that we have? Hmmm. I've studied a lot of philosophical discussions
of this, especially what are called arguments for the existence of God. A lot of the arguments were advanced by Catholic theologians, such as St. Anselm (the ontological argument) and St. Thomas Aquinas (the cosmological argument and the teleological argument), as well as by philosophers like Immanuel Kant (the moral argument). Ultimately, the arguments fail. There is one"argument" that doesn't fail — that of experience. It's like the hymn "He Lives" — "You ask me how I know He lives. He lives within my heart." To the person who has experienced such a faith moment, nothing can be more convincing. To the person who hasn't,however, nothing can be sillier. The "argument" from experience is, therefore, both the best and the worst argument.

As for allowing you to base your side of the discussion on something that cannot be founded upon reason or logic, of course I can allow that. However, you will realize that there will be times when I challenge that and times when we will come to an impasse because you accept it on faith and I reject it for lack of reason and logic. And believe me, I understand your side a lot more than you might think I do[/quote]

ok phamily...go to work

[FullTruth]

From what I just read, I got the distinct impression that this person is not agnostic. I would delve deeper than that, because I think he could be a very decietful Satanist.

First, he doesn't acknowledge Satan at all - warning sign of demonic possession. Satan wants us to think he doesn't exist so he can decieve and destroy.

Second, he is coming out with the - there is no heaven and hell issue. I recently saw a bunch of Satanists kicked off a message board, and one of their 'messages' was Hell didn't exist.

Call him out on it.

If he starts denying, and says, you Christians are all the same, calling whoever doesn't agree with you a Satanist, than you've got him in a lie.

He is either a Satanist, or he is possessed by Satanic Spirits who don't want to let him go.

That is my piece of advice.

I'm just going to quote him here

[quote name='E-mail']Furthermore, I could show you some obscure passages in the Bible that speak as if there is more than one god and that the Hebrew God (YHWH) is just one of many, albeit the best. I could show you passages where it talks in terms that seem much more like Greek mythology, where the gods have sex with humans and spawn a race of supermen. What's the point? Only this: There is not one consistent story. It's
many stories that over the years have been woven together in different ways and with different interpretations.[/quote]

I have a felling your mother is possibly dealing with a Nephilim. Be careful, you and her might be over your heads.

I will be praying for you because of this.

Edited April 13, 2007 by FullTruth

[track2004]

Just tag his emails as spam and forget about it. She shouldn't have to be worried about this guy starting things online.

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They work together on a city council. She is going to make a reply, I just want to provide something rational for her.

[Katholikos]

Rev, how did this person come in contact with your mother?

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work together on city council. She runs some Park and rec programs and he does something with the newspaper

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Man, Im upset. Much of this is over my head. I pray someone can help me here.

If anything, I want to bring my mom closer to the church as well. SHe is a former catholic who got bit hard. This could help big time

[Winchester]

He's hitting on your mom. It's round about, but that's what he's doing. Have her skirt the religious issue and shut his romantic carp down with the cold shoulder.

[N/A Gone]

Even if that is the case...would rather keep her soul in tact. Why skirt the issues? What are some replies?

[WillT]

Well, I just saw a show on EWTN the other day with a Jewish convert speaking about the Bible. He said never to let someone tell you the Bible is just a collection of nice stories, and the proof he used was the idea of quarentine being in the Old Testament at a time when other religions said to make potions etc. I don't know if that helps much.

Second point, he says he's "studied a lot of philosophical arguments" by St. Anselm, St. Thomas etc. but that they all "fail." I would challenge him to argue exactly where they fail. That'll give you a rational argument to start on. It's hard to argue rationally with this guy at this point because he hasn't presented any sort of rational argument. He just basically said, "I've studied philosophical arguments for God's existence and they all fail" then went on to attack arguments from experience. If you can get him to present at least one philosophical argument I'll check in and try to give some responses. I'm no expert, but I'll get out my notes from the religious epistimology class I took last semester. I'm at a secular school, so I think I've heard just about every philosophical argument against God's existence there is!

[Winchester]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1241110' date='Apr 13 2007, 01:24 AM']Even if that is the case...would rather keep her soul in tact. Why skirt the issues? What are some replies?[/quote]
You need to read a book on the issue. I don't remember all the proofs of demons, but he is dancing. The issue of Satan being a single entity consistently referred to in the Bible isn't a valid point. The Bible clearly supports the existence of fallen angels. Zoroastrians did not come up with good and evil. Comparative religion arguments fall squarely within one of the basic tenets of apologetics: that knowledge of God can come from the light of human reason. Not full knowledge, but the concept of the need for a first cause is easily proven.

I wrote an article about demons or satan. It was on phatmass a long time ago. Can someone find it? dUSt?

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I would appreciate the article. Thank you guys. Im gonna wait a day or so and bring together the best info Im given. You guys rock.

[Roamin Catholic]

[quote name='WillT' post='1241123' date='Apr 13 2007, 02:31 AM']I'm at a secular school, so I think I've heard just about every philosophical argument against God's existence there is![/quote]


That you have Will.......

Prayers that this works out

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Greetings, Revprodeji,

For the most part, this person is actually presenting some fairly basic arguments with elementary responses ... but he's doing so in a fairly sophisticated manner. Case in point....

[quote]
Yes, there are several references to the devil/Satan in the Bible. But many of the passages that people assume are about the
devil/Satan never really say that. For example, I defy you to go to the Garden of Eden story and show me where it says that Satan was there. It doesn't. It says "the serpent." Over the years, theologians and artists have interpreted the reference to the
serpent to be Satan. It has entered popular interpretation, but that's not what the Bible actually says. [/quote]Of course it doesn't directly say "Hey, this was Satan." Why should it? The very word "satan" is a Hebrew word that simply means "adversary." Anyone who opposes another person could be called "satan," because that is not a specific name. The earliest (as in earliest written) text that discusses Satan is probably Job, but here the Hebrew is different--it's "Ha-satan," or "[i]The[/i] Adversary." The addition of the "Ha" prefix makes the word a proper noun referring to a specific entity.

So if the serpent wasn't the "big boss" Satan, who else could it be? Whatever it was, it was opposed to Adam, and was therefore an adversary. *shrug* If your mother's co-worker wants to split hairs that fine, that's his hobby, but your mom doesn't have to buy into it.

[quote]As for Lucifer, the "name"
is used one time — that's it — in the entire Bible, a small passage in the book of Isaiah. But sometimes the Hebrew word is translated as "morning star." Many of our notions about Satan as a fallen angel simply cannot be found in the Bible.[/quote]

Of course they can't--but remind your mom that the Catholic Church works with both the Bible and Received Tradition.

[quote]Yes, the book of Job — one of the oldest books of the Bible, according to most biblical scholars — does make mention of Satan having a conversation with God. But if you read the book carefully and not through the eyes of the Judeo-Christian tradition, you will see that the character actually acts as an agent of God, not as an adversary.[/quote]In Christian tradition, there was a specific point in time when Satan was cast out of heaven. There is no reason why Job could not have been based in the time before this event occurred.

[quote]The problem is that there is not just one consistent story in the Bible about such matters.[/quote]

Of course there isn't--nor is there any logical reason why their should be. You have [i]people[/i] writing the Bible--people that Catholics believe were inspired by God, but even the most inspired writer is going to write a text according to his understanding.

[quote]But how do we know that that which you or anyone else calls "God" truly exists and is not just a wish that we have?[/quote]

Functionally speaking, [i]would it truly make a difference?[/i] Whether or not God exists, if those who believe are more capable of living a well-adjusted, happy life, then why would those who do not believe be concerned? If God does not exist, and the Church is wrong, then those who believe have lived a good life, as moral as they knew how to be, and died happy. And if God does exist, then we have done our best to serve Him, according to our understanding.

[Budge]

Your Mom is a Bible Christian, born again isnt she Rev?

Some rantings of an atheist isnt going to break her down. The Holy Spirit will protect her.

I have ran into some very talented folks over the years including those who tell one of the biggest lies online, how the Annanuki "invented" all the worlds religions including Christianity.

Anyone with Biblical knowledge can see a lie for what it is.

As for Satan being a serpent in the Garden of evil...his arguments can be demolished with a simple reading of the Hebrew.
[quote]
he Hebrew word translated "serpent" in the above passage is נחש (nachash). In addition to "serpent," [b]this Hebrew root word has three other possible meanings. It can be used as a noun to mean (1) "one who practices divination," or (2) "shining brass." However, nachash can also be used as a verb to mean (3) "to shine" or "to glow."
[/b]
In Genesis 3, it is possible that nachash is used in the verbal form as a noun. [b]If that is the case, the proper translation of hanachash in Genesis 3 would be "the Shining one." This understanding of nachash fits in very well with Paul's description of Satan appearing as an "angel of light"[/b] (II Cor. 11:14).[/quote]