Building Your Own Church.

[Akalyte]

How did these people come up with such a ludicrous idea? Where does the bible say that men must build their own Churches based on their personal interpretations. I want to see verses.

[Mateo el Feo]

In my view, it's interesting that the New Testament epistles focus so much on correcting local churches, which puts into question the whole idea of having an independent local church which answers to no one.

[Guest T-Bone]

Well, you know, Protestants have an excuse for everything...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1244803' date='Apr 15 2007, 08:13 PM']Well, you know, Protestants have an excuse for everything...[/quote]

Indeed. I think the excuse is something along the lines of "St Paul was just advising those nice communities" or something to that extent...

[Budge]

Was the guy casting out demons wrong for building "his own church"?

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, [u]we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[/u]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, [b]Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

[jeffpugh]

Interesting quote. I must say it's almost obscure, but I don't think he 'started' his own Church. In fact, he was following Jesus, but wasn't tagging along with the Apostles.

[Akalyte]

I knew you would post that.lol Where does it say he built his own church?

[BG45]

What verses? As a Protestant here, I will freely admit that history shows Luther wanted reform, yes, but not most likely the Reformation. Politicians/rulers of the time saw a chance to get their own power and money, and challenged the power of the Church with the whole idea of "protest". Unfortunately this is followed by Catholic/Protestant wars, and violence that continues in far smaller amounts to this day.

[zdog042]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1244747' date='Apr 15 2007, 06:40 PM']Where does the bible say that men must build their own Churches based on their personal interpretations. I want to see verses.[/quote]

I can only answer from what I have heard from others.

1) Bible does not say that we [u]must[/u].
2) The basis of evangelical thought is the "great commission." Therefore, whatever can help "save souls" will be better, and people tend to go toward places where they have common ground.
3) Build specific churches tailored to a specific viewpoint to "save souls."

The other reason I have heard is:
1) Other people got it wrong and are going to hell.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='zdog042' post='1246044' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:15 PM']3) Build specific churches tailored to a specific viewpoint to "save souls."[/quote]So, if I'd like to target a specific demographic (let's say polygamists), I should found a church in which polygamy is regarded as acceptable?

[N/A Gone]

zdog, what do you YOURSELF understand it as? What is the justification for attending and creating seperate churches?

[thessalonian]

3) Build specific churches tailored to a specific viewpoint to "save souls."

You gotta be joking.

I've also heard that God allows the denomination's in order to hide the truth from Satan. Really, this was from a Protestant pastor. He actually thought that God wanted the truth mixed with error to keep the deciever from finding the truth. Funny thing is it keeps people pretty confused and dived as well.

Edited April 17, 2007 by thessalonian

[jeffpugh]

Divided, and conquerable...

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1246050' date='Apr 16 2007, 05:23 PM']So, if I'd like to target a specific demographic (let's say polygamists), I should found a church in which polygamy is regarded as acceptable?[/quote]

No, and you understand that is not the case. Lets say a specific church to reach young couples, or a specific church to reach asian immigrants. Not polygamist.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1246370' date='Apr 16 2007, 08:00 PM']3) Build specific churches tailored to a specific viewpoint to "save souls."

You gotta be joking.

I've also heard that God allows the denomination's in order to hide the truth from Satan. Really, this was from a Protestant pastor. He actually thought that God wanted the truth mixed with error to keep the deciever from finding the truth. Funny thing is it keeps people pretty confused and dived as well.[/quote]

It makes me sad to hear such polemic words from you friend

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1246477' date='Apr 16 2007, 09:03 PM']Divided, and conquerable...[/quote]

Your own family?

Words are beyond me. But you guys all pretty much smell of elderberries right now. I pray to God and to all the saints that I never have the perspective that you display here. If saying this makes me never a militant, or it even gets me a phisy that is fine. Heck, a mod might edit this. But you guys... I dunno. Why would you ever say that? Are protestants unintellgent hippies? Children on a lil bus? Are they less than you? For a protestant to have a legit faith takes so much time, and so much commitment to the scriptures and to love. To council and hold the weak. My own convinctions of the sacraments and the authority of history led to my conversion. But dont think for a second I felt protestantism lacking. (I felt there was plenty of idiots involved, but I think the same for catholicism) I have spent the better part of 3 years now on this website, i have spent countless hours reading posts from you guys. I have spent time in dialogue with you guys. I have grown to respect and love you as brothers. But to see you beat down and dehumanize someone who is for me an example of heartfilled faith that I have spent numerous parts of the last 4 years desiring to be like, it just leaves me overwhelmed.

[zdog042]

Thank you.

Again, these are only reasons I have heard. Apparantely I need to be more specific so my words are not misrepresented. For the duration, I will be speaking as if I completely believe the words I have heard. These are not my opinions.
--------------------
When I talk about viewpoint, I should have defined my wording. I meant that because people are attracted to people who are like them, we should create churches that will attract people to it so that we can save souls and bring people to Christ. This does not mean that we should accept their sin as being good, but we should create churches that will accept them as people. Where would you want sinners but in the church where they can heal and be saved? Would you rather have them out in the world, going farther down their path toward unholiness?

That is why we should have different churches. Each denomination has different gifts, and can reach different people. We all need to work together so that we can reach the whole of the world for Christ.

So, that is why we believe that they should create new churches. A church should be targeted toward an segment of the population and work toward attracting them. This does not mean that we should skimp on the truth of the bible. Instead we should create an environment that we can share this truth with the non-Christian masses.
-------------------

My viewpoint, is that we have overchurched the population, watered down the gospel, and made Christianity a laughing stock within the world with ineffective methods and lifestyle. If Christians can not act like Christians, then we are doing something wrong. If a transformation does not happen, something is wrong. That may be with the church or with the person, but something something is out of wack somewhere. New churches are not needed, a transformation of the churches we have is in order.

[cmotherofpirl]

You do NOT pick a church that conforms to your current your beliefs [ whatever they currently are this month or year].
You pick a church because it contains the fullness of TRUTH.

[zdog042]

And right there is the difference between Protestants and Catholics.

The correct church for Catholics is the one which has the most correct theology. They will be able to bring you along and help you grow the best.
To Protestants, the best church is that which is within the style which they need to learn the best. As the person grows, they may need a different style and thus a different church within Christianity.

With one, the dogma is the focal point, within the other, teaching. With one, you must be prepared before starting, with the other, you can learn as you go along. With one, you need the guide rope, with the other, you forge your own path. These two are completely separate worldviews, and as this tiny exchange has shown, they speak past one another. Within my post, I said nothing about beliefs, I mentioned learning styles. Additionaly, within Protestant circles, (this may come as a shock to many who frequently deal with fundis like budge) we tend to believe that we are all equally Christian. We are all Christian, belong to the same body, and so can share people who attend our churches. If our church building is not helping a person grow in their spiritual faith, we tend to be quick to let them go to a place that they can grow. We would rather see them grow into a healthy christian than to stay within the boarders of our particular church. This is very different from Catholics, and I don't even know if everybody on this board could understand what I am saying. I am afraid that I am speaking past people because of the wording I use. A valid fear.

Because of this difference, and because you can not phrase your response in a way that doesn't completely contradict everything the majority of protestants hold dear, you leave me no room to actually respond. You have laid down an ultimatum, and left no room for response, we only have the option of hitting each other with words until one of us budges. What can I say to what you say? If I say no, then I lose. If I say yes, then I lose. If I try to clarify my response, I have avoided the question and not answered. YES/NO questions are misleading, and the only response to that statement is a YES/NO. Of course, this could be because we may be speaking past each other.

When two opposing viewpoints are at a standstill, when they are locked and there seems to be no way out, synthesis is the only option. The major philosophical strides happen with synthesis. A major component of this is being able to talk to both sides, in language that both understand. To say what you say just speaks over the head of most Protestants, they will look at you like you just swore because they do not understand what you just said. They will look at you like you are crazy, because they didn't even mention their beliefs. Their beliefs have stayed the same, they just looked for a different school.

To clarify, within the people I was talking for (not my full viewpoint), I was not talking about beliefs. I was talking about learning styles. As you grow, the way that you best absorb data changes. When you are a child, you may want to touch everything. As an adult, you may prefer to read about it. This style changes, but what you believe does not have to.

I am not even getting into the discussion of who is right and who is wrong. According to what I read on this thread, you wanted to know why Protestants thought the way they thought. Do you think I am going to defend their point of view? I am very against the planting of churches when you plan for their death in 40-80 years. This is the favored form of evangelism of one of my professors, and I fought him tooth & nail (good record company) about it because I do not believe that we should be planting churches as fast as we can.

Language is the hardest thing in inter-Christian dialogues. We mean different things by the same words. This takes time to work out, but when we do it is very rewarding.

[Paddington]

Akalyte,

I'll try to give a Prot answer....

1. Luther was just trying to reform. (don't ask me how true this is)
2. Politics and war got in the way of Christian unity as it had before there were Protestants. (don't ask me for details, because I don't know them. But I still think this one is pretty big.)
3. What about people who believe in Jesus and don't agree with all the Pope's teachings? Why not build a church? And then why not make a denom for practical reasons afterwards?
4. What about people who believe in Jesus and won't consider the Catholic Church, because of contradictions and obscurities in the history of the Church's teaching? Why not just build a church and then.....a denom?

There are Prots who believe just this.
There are also Prots who (might as well) believe that the complete, bound Bible fell in mass quantities from the sky in all tongues on the completely literate earth with explicit instructions to only follow the perspicuous Bible coming from a burning bush that was heard by all people of all time.

Peace,
Paddington

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244839' date='Apr 15 2007, 04:40 PM']Was the guy casting out demons wrong for building "his own church"?

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, [u]we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[/u]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, [b]Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b][/quote]

that quote often reminds me not to condemn our christian brothers and sisters as well. however, you seem to know much about church history and the Catholic Church, so it seems many would hold you more accountable for knowing the truth. but then again, you don't fully understand it to be the true church so..

afaik, if you knew the Catholic Church is the true church, but turned to islam because you loved your muslim girlfriend so much, that would be the grave sin we're talking about.

i feel the most sorrow for the little ones and most of the younger generation who don't even know about church history and are raised to despise the Church. best question evar i've heard many times, "Catholics are christians?"

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1246787' date='Apr 16 2007, 09:45 PM']You do NOT pick a church that conforms to your current your beliefs [ whatever they currently are this month or year].
You pick a church because it contains the fullness of TRUTH.[/quote]

You don't think that Roman Catholics [and every other Catholic including Orthodox for that matter] join their churches [referring to converts] because it conforms to their beliefs? I'm gonna say that I wouldn't have been Christmated and taken the Eucharist as Jesus' Body and Blood if it weren't for the Catholic Church conforming to my beliefs. My beliefs were that I wanted to worship God as he desired to be worshiped and belong to the church that the Early Church Fathers and Saints belonged to, so I'd chosen The Church because of that, it conformed to my beliefs.

Reza