Example Of Taking Mary

[Katholikos]

Why do Protestants (and others) expect every statement we make to Mary to be theologically exact? We speak to our Mother and the saints in the language of love, not theology. No matter how flowery our language, we know Mary is a human being and has no power but the power of prayer.

The oldest known written prayer to Mary is an example, the [b][i]Sub Tuum Praesidium[/i][/b], found in a Greek papyrus dated about A.D. 250:

[i]We turn to you for protection,
holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.[/i]

Catholics -- then or now -- didn't believe Mary had the power to "help us in our needs and save us from every danger" except through her prayers.

Likos

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]But you didn't answer his question (or mine). Does Mary actuall control Grace to the extent it's accurate to say she 'confers' Grace?[/quote]

My understanding of Mary's ability to confer grace is summed up by the image of a multi-tiered fountain. Water (God's grace) gushes out at the top and pours down into the bowls and hollows below, which in turn brim over and spill the water into the lowest trough. Mary acts like one of those bowls. She is so full of God's mercy and love that she is brimming over with it. Stand near her, and you will be soaked in it. It reminds me of an Arabic proverb: "He who stands near the perfume-seller will smell of fragrance."

She had an active role in the Divine Plan when she brought Christ into the world. Saying that she confers grace is no different to hailing her as the [i]Theotokos[/i], the God-bearer. She still bears God to us even now - like any mother, she wants to share her joy and her love, and so she pours out on us what she has been given.

Admittedly the language of the prayer disturbed me at first - but so does the language of many of the old prayers, including those that are addressed to Jesus. I prefer to pray in simple language; all the frills and furbelows irritate me. As St Bernadette said, "In trying to dress things up, one only distorts them." But what we must remember is that when St Alphonsus was alive this prayer [i]was[/i] an example of simple language. It is our own cultural context that causes the prayer to be distorted.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1245791' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:53 PM']Why do Protestants (and others) expect every statement we make to Mary to be theologically exact? We speak to our Mother and the saints in the language of love, not theology. No matter how flowery our language, we know Mary is a human being and has no power but the power of prayer.[/quote]

If her only power is prayer, why praise her for things she has no power to do?

Is doctrincal exactness and correctness such a bad thing? Would you allow a Protestant to make inccorect statements and excuse it by saying, "I'm using the language of love?"

[kujo]

I think we are all missing a crucial point here. That point is Mary's [i]fiat[/i], her "yes." This is the essense and source of our belief that she, in some way, aided in our (and her) salvation. She accepted God's command, accepted His will for her. So, too, can we participate in salvation through [i]our[/i] "yes" to God.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1245791' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:53 PM']Why do Protestants (and others) expect every statement we make to Mary to be theologically exact?[/quote]

Hey, watch that broad brush! *ducks to escape the paint*

Seriously, even the most cursory study of Church history and historical liturgy will illustrate Katholikos' point precisely. Yes, the prayers and hymns to Mary are flowery, and place her on a pedestal--but contrary to the Baptist teachings that I received as a child, that's not a "recent apostasy" that Rome somehow fell into at the Council of Ephesus. The Church has revered Mary since the second century (this can be documented), and probably since the first (this is somewhat speculative, but certainly not an unwarranted speculation).

Contrary to some of the accusations that some Protestants place on the Catholic Church, Mary has never been considered as the "fourth member of the Trinity," or as in any way "equal with" or "above" Jesus Christ. (And yes, in case there are any doubts, I heard both slanders being propagated from Baptist pulpits when I was a teenager.) Mary required redemption: though Catholic theology teaches that she was born without a sin nature, she is not God. Some Catholics refer to Mary as "Co-Redemptrix," an appellation that many Protestants object to, but if this was accepted by solemn definition, being "Co-Redemptrix" does not make her "co-equal" with God, and the Catholic Church has [i]never[/i] tried to make her so. Indeed, in Catholic teaching, all baptized members of the Church are "co-redeemers," in that they cooperate with God's redemption.

It has been said before, "To be deep in [Church history] is to be Catholic." That's more true than some Protestants will admit, and some of that is from an honest and sincere misunderstanding of the terminology used within the Catholic Church. But it is possible that some of it is due to an uncharitable hostility for Catholic Christianity--a hostility that hates first, and looks for "reasons" later.

[Aloysius]

oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans

:double checks IP address to be sure it's not a Jesuit conspiracy:... nope, no jesuit cospiracy found.

still a bit unsettling haha :

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']I guess what I disagree with is the tendency to give Mary praise for redmeptive action, but then qualify it with "but we alll know Jesus really does it through her."[/quote]I would disagree with your use of the word "tendency." In fact, one has to really search hard to find examples like the Liguori quote. Far from being a "tendency", they are exceptions to the rule.

But, even in considering this quote, it is not the Marian apologist who has to read between the lines to say "we all know Jesus really does it through her." In this prayer, Our Lord is explicitly mentioned; it is His love that we are after. Instead, it is the skeptic who has to ignore certain text in order to put forward a cogent argument.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']If Jesus does it, then let's praise him for it, not his mother.[/quote]Can you imagine making such a demand of the Holy Bible? When people in search of healing were trying to touch the shadow of St. Peter (Acts 5), should the text have added something like, "Well, it wasn't the power of the shadow or St. Peter himself; it was actually Our Lord working through St. Peter through the shadow."? Wouldn't this become incredibly monotonous? Let's apply your rule without prejudice. If it applies to St. Alphonsus Liguori, let's see how often we can fault the Holy Bible for the same "sin."

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']Mary is of course am inportant part of the church, but we may need to adjust our emphasis on her.[/quote]I'm sorry?

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']J2P2 had a very strong Marian devotion that I think sometimes clouded his overall view of the world.[/quote]R2D2? Anyway, I find it difficult to understand how you could claim that a Pope's "very strong Marian devotion" could cloud his views. Do you have specific examples?

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']Why should our prayers be doctrinaly questionable, but poeticly beautiful? Didn't you read Liturgican Authenticum? Poeticism cannot trump sound doctrine. Why pray on feeble theological ground becuase it sounds nice?[/quote]Once again, let's apply the same test to Holy Scriptures. As you know, plenty of Christological and Trinitarian heresies sprung from an independent, literal reading of isolated texts. Yet, we don't fault the inspired writers or Sacred text for these errors.

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245783' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:44 PM']BTW, if you removed "gate of heaven" I would love J2P2's prayer because it directs the faithful towards Christ, a characteristic of rightly order Marian devotion. They prayer also speaks of assisting, not redeeming or saving. That's all we can do - assist. We [i]assist [/i]at Mass, we [i]assist [/i]in salvation. We can't [i]do [/i]it ourselves.[/quote]Editing prayers aside, my main point still applies: the Marian devotions which do not conform to your discriminating judgment is the exception to the rule; anyone who presumes to use judgment against them for not being 100% explicit (regarding attributing all grace to God) will be sorely let down if they try to apply this standard to the Holy Bible.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1245799' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:00 PM']My understanding of Mary's ability to confer grace is summed up by the image of a multi-tiered fountain. Water (God's grace) gushes out at the top and pours down into the bowls and hollows below, which in turn brim over and spill the water into the lowest trough. Mary acts like one of those bowls. She is so full of God's mercy and love that she is brimming over with it. Stand near her, and you will be soaked in it. It reminds me of an Arabic proverb: "He who stands near the perfume-seller will smell of fragrance."

She had an active role in the Divine Plan when she brought Christ into the world. Saying that she confers grace is no different to hailing her as the [i]Theotokos[/i], the God-bearer. She still bears God to us even now - like any mother, she wants to share her joy and her love, and so she pours out on us what she has been given.

Admittedly the language of the prayer disturbed me at first - but so does the language of many of the old prayers, including those that are addressed to Jesus. I prefer to pray in simple language; all the frills and furbelows irritate me. As St Bernadette said, "In trying to dress things up, one only distorts them." But what we must remember is that when St Alphonsus was alive this prayer [i]was[/i] an example of simple language. It is our own cultural context that causes the prayer to be distorted.[/quote]Thanks. Your example illustrates her role as a channel of God's grace, so in a sense, she can be said to 'confer' graces as a channel of grace. It's still an uncomfortable illustration.

I have not problem with flowery language. The Gloria is a good example of flowery language with solid grounding because Mary is calle our most Gracious Advocate within the context of the prayer. Confer means to transfer, assign, bestow. That infers control of what is being bestowed. It's clumsy because it takes too much nuance to communicate a clear and theologically correct meaning. Why use it especially in the context of the rest of the prayer?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1245819' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:24 PM'] oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans

:double checks IP address to be sure it's not a Jesuit conspiracy:... nope, no jesuit cospiracy found.

still a bit unsettling haha :[/quote][b]"God bless those pagans."[/b] -- Homer Simpson

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1245819' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:24 PM'] oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans [/quote]

Maybe I'm the Spanish Inquisition in disguise! Mua-ha-ha! And nobody expected me!

Heck, the biggest reason I'm saying what I've said is [i]because it's true[/i]. I cannot tell you the number of times I was lied to growing up ... lies that I now see being repeated in good faith by well-meaning people who have been fed bad information.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

Double post. Nothing to see here. Pay no attention to the Secret Jesuit Spy Subliminal Message in this post.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Justin (Wiccan)

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1245819' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:24 PM'] oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans [/quote]Truth is truth and is recognizable by many peoples of many beliefs. I know you don't mean this seriously, but it is indicative of some who will disregard, demean, or distrust anything said or proposed by a non-Christian or non-Catholic. That's why so many Catholics are uncomfortable with Mother Theresa saying that if you are going to be a Hindu, be a good Hindu. Anything that is good is of God. I admire Justin's intellectual honesty.

[jckinsman]

Hello freinds! I expect "full truth" to be here soon, to stir this up even more! Justin,Hi! I read what you said, and I can agree with some of the statements you make! Its really hard for me though to think about The wiccan,faith??? Religon??? UMMMM.... I lived next to you guys at my old house and they really do some really interesting things......you are loved too, by Christ, on your journey! Peace be with you justin! Getting back to Mary,....I found that the book by Scott Hahn, Hail Holy Queen, Was helpful in explaining things. Scott puts it in a way you can understand what and why we believe what we do>Ask yourselves though, Do you really want to know? or Do you just want to argue the point!???? Once you swallow a little of your pride milkshake, you will come to know your" mother" as Christ made her, for us! I hate to break it to you ,as much as you really want to believe we worship her,,,,,,,,,,We don't.! JC

Edited April 16, 2007 by jckinsman

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans [/quote]

I have been defended by a Sunni Muslim before now. I was talking to some self-proclaimed 'liberal' Catholics who didn't know the first thing about Christianity. One of them even wrote, "Jesus Christ! God's not a [i]person[/i]!" before going on to explain that God is an incorporeal 'force' and we can choose whether to fight this 'force' or align ourselves with it. They evidently found me and my Trinity too inconvenient (apparently I'm a 'brainwashed fundamentalist') and they blocked me from the discussion. When I visited the message board a few days later (I was blocked from posting, not from reading) I discovered that my Muslim best friend was vigorously making the case for the Trinity. It made me smile.

[Phoenix Reborn]

If they're Catholic or not, they're your brother or sister in Christ. You have a chance of being defended by anyone.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Phoenix Reborn

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1245870' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:27 PM']I have been defended by a Sunni Muslim before now. I was talking to some self-proclaimed 'liberal' Catholics who didn't know the first thing about Christianity. One of them even wrote, "Jesus Christ! God's not a [i]person[/i]!" before going on to explain that God is an incorporeal 'force' and we can choose whether to fight this 'force' or align ourselves with it. They evidently found me and my Trinity too inconvenient (apparently I'm a 'brainwashed fundamentalist') and they blocked me from the discussion. When I visited the message board a few days later (I was blocked from posting, not from reading) I discovered that my Muslim best friend was vigorously making the case for the Trinity. It made me smile.[/quote]
yeah ... I have a friend who is Muslim and she and I have made some surprising connections spiritually. We actually each deeply respect the other's faith, even though there are fundamental areas of disagreement.

[kujo]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1245819' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:24 PM'] oh boy, we're being defended by wiccans

:double checks IP address to be sure it's not a Jesuit conspiracy:... nope, no jesuit cospiracy found.

still a bit unsettling haha :[/quote]


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1245870' date='Apr 16 2007, 04:27 PM']I have been defended by a Sunni Muslim before now...I discovered that my Muslim best friend was vigorously making the case for the Trinity. It made me smile.[/quote]


[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1245898' date='Apr 16 2007, 04:51 PM']yeah ... I have a friend who is Muslim and she and I have made some surprising connections spiritually. We actually each deeply respect the other's faith, even though there are fundamental areas of disagreement.[/quote]

This is the sort of stuff that makes Budge's head spin around while she spits up split-pea soup.

[img]http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/exorcist_vomit.jpg[/img]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245805' date='Apr 16 2007, 02:11 PM']If her only power is prayer, why praise her for things she has no power to do?

Is doctrincal exactness and correctness such a bad thing? Would you allow a Protestant to make inccorect statements and excuse it by saying, "I'm using the language of love?"[/quote]

I have absolutely no control over a Protestant's statements. He may -- and does -- make incorrect statements in any mode or language he wishes.

Catholics speak in "shorthand." When I and other Catholics pray to Mary, we omit the unnecessary words. Most of us, that is. You, of course, if your screen name indicates that you are Catholic, are, I assume, the exception.

I could say: 'Mary, please pray to your Divine Son on my behalf and ask him to save me from every danger.' But I don't. "Save me from every danger" eliminates about 13 words and saves the time it takes to say them. The Blessed Mother knows what I mean, and I know what I mean, so the words are not necessary, except to satisfy the Protestants (and others) who don't understand prayer to the saints anyway. It's really not the words they object to -- it's prayer to the saints, period. But any friend of God's is a friend of mine. That certainly includes His Mother.

Likos
Ex-Protestant, agnostic, atheist

[Sojourner]

gross

the Exorcist, not Likos. Likos is the opposite of gross.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Terra Firma

[jckinsman]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1245870' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:27 PM']I have been defended by a Sunni Muslim before now. I was talking to some self-proclaimed 'liberal' Catholics who didn't know the first thing about Christianity. One of them even wrote, "Jesus Christ! God's not a [i]person[/i]!" before going on to explain that God is an incorporeal 'force' and we can choose whether to fight this 'force' or align ourselves with it. They evidently found me and my Trinity too inconvenient (apparently I'm a 'brainwashed fundamentalist') and they blocked me from the discussion. When I visited the message board a few days later (I was blocked from posting, not from reading) I discovered that my Muslim best friend was vigorously making the case for the Trinity. It made me smile.[/quote]

PRAISE GOD! I LOVE IT!