Example Of Taking Mary

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]I know someone who says his wife saved his life, that he would have become an alcoholic if he had never met her. Did she literally and directly save his life? No, and neither does the idea negate the fact that God ultimately is our savior.[/quote]

This is kinda like apples and oranges, unlike the man in your example, St. Mary didn't save Jesus, rather Jesus saved St. Mary. It would also be wrong to speculate that if St. Mary hasn't have said, "let it be so" and allowed Jesus to be incarnate through her, then Jesus would have found somebody else. Jesus isn't bound by any human beings, saying that he is... is no different then Protestant "end times" fanatics that believe that we can keep the end times from happening "if we just do this... politically".

In regards to the statement of Protestants disagreement with Roman Catholics, it isn't just Protestants but Orthodox also heavily disagree with Roman Catholics.

Reza

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245780' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:41 PM']I guess what I disagree with is the tendency to give Mary praise for redmeptive action, but then qualify it with "but we alll know Jesus really does it through her." If Jesus does it, then let's praise him for it, not his mother. Mary is of course am inportant part of the church, but we may need to adjust our emphasis on her. J2P2 had a very strong Marian devotion that I think sometimes clouded his overall view of the world. Why should our prayers be doctrinaly questionable, but poeticly beautiful? Didn't you read Liturgican Authenticum? Poeticism cannot trump sound doctrine. Why pray on feeble theological ground becuase it sounds nice?[/quote]

" No one for whom Mary has once prayed will taste the sorrows of Hell.
If I have the Mother of Mercy (the Mother of the Judge) to defend me, who will dare to say that the Judge will refuse me mercy when I come before Him?"
- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

I think that kind of helps to explain what St. Alphonsus meant by his words. Thank you from saving me from hell, does not mean that it was by your merits that I was saved from hell, but rather thanking you for saving me from hell by your intercession. I think it is perfectly alright.

JPII also, questioned his devotion to Mary at one period in time, but concluded that one can never give enough honor and love to Mary, for she is the Mother of God. She is the Queen of Heaven. All honor and praise given to her, only can give much more honor and praise and glory to God, for it was God himself who merited her state for her and willed it. To honor her is to give glory to God and honor the work he has done for her. As Mary says in the Gospels, "My soul doth magnify the Lord." In turn, all praise given to her "doth magnify the Lord."

To say that St. Alphonsus de Ligurori, a doctor of the Church, believed and prayed things doctrinally unsound is laughable.

[quote]BTW, if you removed "gate of heaven" I would love J2P2's prayer because it directs the faithful towards Christ, a characteristic of rightly order Marian devotion. They prayer also speaks of assisting, not redeeming or saving. That's all we can do - assist. We [i]assist [/i]at Mass, we [i]assist [/i]in salvation. We can't [i]do [/i]it ourselves.[/quote]

Have your read Glories of Mary by St. Alphonsus de Ligurori? I suggest you read it. Also, the Church has said what a true Marian devotion is, and they agree that St. Alphonsus de Ligurori had a TRUE Marian devotion. Everything he wrote about Mary was doctrinally ok. If anything had been wrong with anything he said then they never would have made him a doctor of the Church.

God bless you. May Our Lady keep you!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[jeffpugh]

[quote]"Most holy, immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all. I render you my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I love you, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to make others love you also. I place in you all my hopes; I confide my salvation to your care. Accept me for your servant and receive me under your mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since you are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain to me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through you I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which you bear to God, I beseech you to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech you, until you see me safe in heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be."[/quote]

I have not read the other posts, I'm just replying to the original. I have to say that prayer is not overdone, because it is still focused on God as the centre and source of all power and mercy. Plus, if she was good enough for God, she's good enough for us. Totus tuus Maria!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote]If her only power is prayer, why praise her for things she has no power to do?

Is doctrincal exactness and correctness such a bad thing? Would you allow a Protestant to make inccorect statements and excuse it by saying, "I'm using the language of love?"[/quote]


No one has praised her for things she had no power to do.

I can't agree with saying that Marian prayers are not theologically correct. They all are (at least those by our saints and Catholic authors that have been approved by the Church), or else they would be condemned.

You cannot limit your devotion to Mary, for it only draws you closer to Jesus himself. It only gives MORE honor to God. God is the one who filled Mary with grace and made her who she is. He did everything for her. Her soul truly doth magnify the Lord, and all praise given to her for her goodness, her compassion, her beauty, and her power all magnify the Lord. One is only giving God more honor by praising the glories he has bestowed upon his creatures! All the saints give honor to God, and all prayers too the saints, especially the Blessed Mother, give honor and glory to God.

The Mother always points toward her Son. It does not matter what you say to her, she will always point toward her Son and she will always magnify the Lord, just as our prayers to her and about her magnify the Lord and give glory to Him.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[jckinsman]

Is there anything written any where or is anyone ever curious about all those years that Mary and Joseph spent with Jesus before he showed back up on the scene at the wedding??? That was alot of years!?? JC

[johnnydigit]

is there a thread that covers all the parallels of Mary in the OT and NT and her role in our salvation? the new eve, queen mother, new ark of the covenant, etc. i think knowing these will shed a lot of light on all the titles she has and show how all these things we do still fall short of what she deserves.

[jckinsman]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1246940' date='Apr 17 2007, 03:51 AM']is there a thread that covers all the parallels of Mary in the OT and NT and her role in our salvation? the new eve, queen mother, new ark of the covenant, etc. i think knowing these will shed a lot of light on all the titles she has and show how all these things we do still fall short of what she deserves.[/quote]
You would be looking for a thread on"the typology Of Mary" I have not been at this site to long,its alot to soak in! I know Books,.....".A Father who keeps his promises" by Dr. Scott Hahn is good for that also.

[Aloysius]

Dr. Scott Hahn's "Hail Holy Queen" deals with it more, I think.

jck, there are some apocryphal christian writings like the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protoevangelium of James which represent some of the popular traditions in the first few centuries about those years; but they are referred to as the private years of Christ and Mary prior to His public ministry.

[jckinsman]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1247145' date='Apr 17 2007, 02:14 PM']Dr. Scott Hahn's "Hail Holy Queen" deals with it more, I think.

jck, there are some apocryphal christian writings like the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and the Protoevangelium of James which represent some of the popular traditions in the first few centuries about those years; but they are referred to as the private years of Christ and Mary prior to His public ministry.[/quote]
They were obviously private for a reason.(meaning you can not find them) Scott Hahn is a blessing, I have learned alot through the eyes of a former "anti-catholic!

Edited April 17, 2007 by jckinsman

[johnnydigit]

ah yes "typology", "type". and Hail Holy Queen covers a ton too. when you see the parallels of how she is the new ark of the covenant side by side, it is just simply undeniable. either you haven't learned about it, or you're simply blind as a bat for some reason. look at the chart at the bottom to[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6811"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6811[/url]
seriously, God didn't make those connections on accident. i'd sure like to hear what wisdom a protestant can claim about those..


fyi here's hail holy queen, 13 part series! [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6668&T1=scott+hahn"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/series...p;T1=scott+hahn[/url]

and you can search a ton of other talks here [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp"]http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp[/url]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1245746' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:58 PM']Does Mary actuall control Grace to the extent it's accurate to say she 'confers' Grace?[/quote]

St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.'"

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm[/url]

Likos

[Resurrexi]

The Church obviously does not think the prayer "Prayer of St. Alphonsus to be said before a picture or statue of Our Blessed Lady" contains incorrect theology since it is printed on page 427 of the prayerbook [i]Blessed Be God[/i] which has on the copyright page the following printed words: "IMPRIMATUR Patrick Cardinal Hayes Archbishop of New York New York March 19, 1925". Moreover, the words "(Ind. of 300 days, each time. -- Pius IX. Sept. 7, 1854)" are printed after the text of the prayer "Prayer of St. Alphonsus to be said before a picture or statue of Our Blessed Lady" on page 427 of the prayerbook [i]Blessed Be God[/i] which obviously means that the Universal Pontiff more than approved of this prayer.

Edited April 18, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Resurrexi]

Double post.

Edited April 18, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Apotheoun]

Mary confers grace upon mankind because she assented to the incarnation, and became the Mother of God.

As St. Gregory Palamas, Bishop of Thessalonika, said in his homily [i]On the Most Venerable Dormition of Our Exceedingly Pure Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary[/i]:

[quote]. . . [A]ll creation praises the Virgin Mother, not just in past time, but "for ever, even for ever and ever." From this we can see that she will never cease doing good to the whole of creation, not just to the human race, but also to the immaterial supernatural hosts of angels. The fact that they, like us, partake of and touch the intangible divine nature only through her is clearly shown by Isaiah. For he did not see the Seraphim taking the live coal directly off the altar, but picking it up with tongs, which he also used to touch his prophetic lips to purify them (Isaiah 6:6-7). This vision of the tongs is the same as that great vision which Moses saw of the bush burning with fire but not consumed (Exodus 3:2). Is there anyone who is unaware that the Virgin Mother is both that bush and those tongs, which held the divine fire without being burnt; for was it not to this very mystery that the Archangel ministered at her conception, which united through her the One Who takes away the sin of the world with the race of men, and which, through this indescribable union, has thoroughly cleansed us? She alone stands at the border between created and uncreated nature, and no one can come to God unless he is truly illumined by her, the true lamp of divine radiance. "For God is in the midst of her," says the Scripture, "she shall not be moved" (Psalm 46:5). [St. Gregory Palamas, [i]Homily 37[/i], no. 15][/quote]

[FullTruth]

My prayers go to Jesus Christ alone!

My praises go to Jesus Christ alone!

For he is worthy of all power, glory, and honour!

His is the kingdom, and he is the blessed and [b]only Potentate[/b], the King of kings, and the Lord of lords!

Jesus is awesome. Why pray to Mary, when you can talk to the King of kings and the Lord of lords!

Any prayer to Mary/saints is giving onto human beings what is reserved only for God. And don't use the, if you ask someone on earth to pray for you things. That is totally different!

[Socrates]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1253744' date='Apr 22 2007, 09:27 PM']My prayers go to Jesus Christ alone!

My praises go to Jesus Christ alone!

For he is worthy of all power, glory, and honour!

His is the kingdom, and he is the blessed and [b]only Potentate[/b], the King of kings, and the Lord of lords!

Jesus is awesome. Why pray to Mary, when you can talk to the King of kings and the Lord of lords!

Any prayer to Mary/saints is giving onto human beings what is reserved only for God. And don't use the, if you ask someone on earth to pray for you things. That is totally different![/quote]
[quote]And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: [b]Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[/b][/quote]~ Luke 1:26-28

[quote]And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: [b]Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.[/b] And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?[/quote]~ Luke 1:41-43

Straight from the Bible!

Edited April 25, 2007 by Socrates