The Theory Of Being "born Again"

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kujo' post='1251198' date='Apr 20 2007, 10:07 PM']He "acts within those bounds?" What the heck does that mean? Is that like God catching a pass on the sideline and having to have both feet in-bounds in order for the reception to count?

Refer to the above quotation from St. Augustine.[/quote]

Simple: In the Old Testament [for example] God told Adam and Eve that they would be perfect communion with him, if they didn't sin but they chose to sin and therefore the perfect communion was lost and they were no longer with God. Does this mean that God couldn't have said "ah, you sinned... no biggie" surely God could have but God is a God of Truth, and therefore the truth is the bounds in which God choses to live.

It's true that God could [and might] allow Muslims to get into heaven [despite not being Christians] but does this mean that Muslims are guarenteed paradise? No, rather the only way to be sure, is through the method in which God designed. We can't deny God's truth and then wait for him to bless us.

[Katholikos]

The Protestants in this discussion write as if "born again" is used several times in Scripture. I think not. It's found only in John 3:3-5 and is translated from the Greek word, [i]anothen,[/i] which has three meanings: from above, anew, and again. Here's the discourse with Nicodemus:

Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew [[i]anothen[/i]], he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Nic misunderstands: "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

Born from above, or anew, or again, of water and Spirit can't mean anything other than Baptism in the Scriptures. John the Baptist says, "one will come after me who will baptize you with water and the Spirit."

The footnote to the RSV says: "5. Birth into the New Order is through [i]water [/i](referring to Baptism; 1.33, Eph 5.26) and [i]the Spirit[/i] (Ezek 36.25-27, Tit 3.5)."

Every baptized Christian has been born again, or anew, or from above, by water and the Spirit.

That "born again" means the emotional experience related to "accepting Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior" or "turning my life over to God" or "giving my heart to Jesus," or any of the other terms Protestants use to describe what they call the "born again" experience is not biblical; it appears nowhere in Scripture.

It seems strange to me that folks who claim to base their faith on Scripture Only would follow an unbiblical practice, and one that is so central to their religion.

Not all Protestants believe this, however. The older, mainline liturgical churches such as Lutherans and Episcopalians are the exception.

We have a demonstration of a denominational split right here before us with Budge stating that water baptism isn't necessary and FullTruth saying that one can't be saved without it. And neither of them can call on any authority to settle the dispute. Each is his/her only authority in biblical interpretation. Ay, there's the rub.

Scriptures quoted from the RSV Protestant Bible.

Likos

[carrdero]

[quote]Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.[/quote]

And all this time I thought these scriptures were supporting reincarnation.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1251332' date='Apr 21 2007, 05:38 AM']And all this time I thought these scriptures were supporting reincarnation.[/quote]

LOL

Note: I find it funny that Budge isn't posting on this topic, we didn't scare her away did we?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1251332' date='Apr 21 2007, 05:38 AM']And all this time I thought these scriptures were supporting reincarnation.[/quote]

LOL

Note: I find it funny that Budge isn't posting on this topic, we didn't scare her away did we?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1251332' date='Apr 21 2007, 05:38 AM']And all this time I thought these scriptures were supporting reincarnation.[/quote]

LOL

Note: I find it funny that Budge isn't posting on this topic, we didn't scare her away did we?

[Budge]

So you all believe being born ANEW {Again} is unncessary?

That entering into a relationship with Jesus Christ is unncessary?

Get some water sprinkled on you as a unknowing baby, and supposely you are "born anew"

It is about the FAITH not about the water.

If that what you say is true, a priest can go to the public swimming pool right now and baptise a bunch of heathens without them even knowing it, and make "Christians" out of them all.
[b]
Joh 3:8
The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit[/b]

Edited April 21, 2007 by Budge

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251396' date='Apr 21 2007, 08:14 AM']So you all believe being born ANEW {Again} is unncessary?

That entering into a relationship with Jesus Christ is unncessary?

Get some water sprinkled on you as a unknowing baby, and supposely you are "born anew"

It is about the FAITH not about the water.

If that what you say is true, a priest can go to the public swimming pool right now and baptise a bunch of heathens without them even knowing it, and make "Christians" out of them all.
[b]
Joh 3:8
The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit[/b][/quote]

I'm not sure if you're aware budge but Full Truth isn't a Roman Catholic [or any Catholic for that matter]. He just simply posted that scripture that mentions spirit and water.

Budge are you denying Jesus's words?

[quote]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/quote]

Budge I never thought that you'd put your own words and theology, above Jesus Christ himself! I very much pity you...

Reza

Edited April 21, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Budge]

Full Truth has his own confused theology...

Ive spent as much time trying to correct him as anyone else here. Even the Latter Rain stuff he admits he is into is part of this.

more departure from Gods Word, that is what causes these errors.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251408' date='Apr 21 2007, 08:20 AM']Full Truth has his own confused theology...

Ive spent as much time trying to correct him as anyone else here. Even the Latter Rain stuff he admits he is into is part of this.

more departure from Gods Word, that is what causes these errors.[/quote]

So you deny that Jesus said we should be born of spirit and water?

How do you explain:

[quote]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/quote]

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251396' date='Apr 21 2007, 11:14 AM']So you all believe being born ANEW {Again} is unncessary?

That entering into a relationship with Jesus Christ is unncessary?

Get some water sprinkled on you as a unknowing baby, and supposely you are "born anew"

It is about the FAITH not about the water.

If that what you say is true, a priest can go to the public swimming pool right now and baptise a bunch of heathens without them even knowing it, and make "Christians" out of them all.
[b]
Joh 3:8
The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit[/b][/quote]

As usual, this demonstrates a lack of any real knowledge of Catholicism.

We Baptize babies so that they enter into God's family, the Church. The parents (and godparents) are there to witness this sacrament, speaking on our behalf and promising to foster our religious upbringing and our faith walk until a time where we can make a decision for ourselves to live for Christ.

Budge, I know you say you used to be Catholic or whatever, but how do you expect to be taken seriously when you make these sort of comments which show how ignorant of Catholic beliefs you are? You get on here and post links and quotes which you undoubtedly find on anti-Catholic websites that twist, contort and pervert our beliefs (**the TRUTH) into something that they're simply NOT.

Simply put, remove your head from your rear and take a look at the world around you. Your aggressive "evangelizing" borders on harassment and bigotry.

[Budge]

[quote]We Baptize babies so that they enter into God's family, the Church. The parents (and godparents) are there to witness this sacrament, speaking on our behalf and promising to foster our religious upbringing and our faith walk until a time where we can make a decision for ourselves to live for Christ.[/quote]

Baptizing a baby does not mean it has a relationship with Christ. one is to become baptized after they have come to knowing faith in Christ. It is an ordinance that shows one's new faith to the community. I was baptized and ended up a pagan UU, that means there is no "power" in the water. I didnt know Jesus. I had no relationship with Him. That is what I am trying to show you.

I know endless atheists, agnostics, and people who havent set foot in a church in YEARS, who do not believe in Christianity [and OPENLY SAY SO] who were baptized as babies, they arent Christians, they arent born again. I certainly WAS NOT, until I came to faith in Jesus Christ.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Budge why do you keep dodging this scripture?

[quote]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[/quote]

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251463' date='Apr 21 2007, 11:47 AM']Baptizing a baby does not mean it has a relationship with Christ. one is to become baptized after they have come to knowing faith in Christ. It is an ordinance that shows one's new faith to the community. I was baptized and ended up a pagan UU, that means there is no "power" in the water. I didnt know Jesus. I had no relationship with Him. That is what I am trying to show you.

I know endless atheists, agnostics, and people who havent set foot in a church in YEARS, who do not believe in Christianity [and OPENLY SAY SO] who were baptized as babies, they arent Christians, they arent born again. I certainly WAS NOT, until I came to faith in Jesus Christ.[/quote]
I am in agreement with Budge here. Baptism is for believers, not babies.

You can ask all your questions, but the walk parents have with God protects their children until the children are of age!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

This is for Budge: what is the purpose of Baptism?

[Budge]

It is an ordinance and symbol of one's faith to the community, that is all.

The ritual of being baptised is not what does the saving.

The saving is via the FAITH in Christ.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251742' date='Apr 21 2007, 12:57 PM']It is an ordinance and symbol of one's faith to the community, that is all.

The ritual of being baptised is not what does the saving.

The saving is via the FAITH in Christ.[/quote]
So Baptism has no purpose?

[kujo]

We are all born with the stain of original sin on our souls. This stain is not necessarily a reflection of a "personal fault" of the individual; rather, it is a "deprivation of original holiness and justice." And the Sacrament of Baptism "erases original sin and turns a man back toward God"; however, "the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle." (**NOTE: All quotations are taken from CCC #405**).

[quote name='Budge' post='1251463' date='Apr 21 2007, 11:47 AM']Baptizing a baby does not mean it has a relationship with Christ. one is to become baptized after they have come to knowing faith in Christ.[/quote]

Then what happens to people who dies before having the opportunity to have this faith in Jesus Christ?

Edited April 21, 2007 by kujo

[N/A Gone]

So if Man is bound to the sacraments, and Jesus set the sacraments in order to help us progress in grace. Is Budge officially elevating herself beyond man to the level of God? She re-writes scripture, disregards anything that "man" has ever said..hmmm

[carrdero]

[quote name='kujo' post='1251414' date='Apr 21 2007, 10:23 AM']As usual, this demonstrates a lack of any real knowledge of Catholicism.

We Baptize babies so that they enter into God's family, the Church. The parents (and godparents) are there to witness this sacrament, speaking on our behalf and promising to foster our religious upbringing and our faith walk until a time where we can make a decision for ourselves to live for Christ.[/quote]
Almost sounds like bookends. At funerals it seems that this ceremony is a ritual for the living not for the dead.