Question I Would Like To Ask A Catholic Too...

[jeffpugh]

I can say Buddha has said some okay stuff, but nothing really that Christ hasn't already said/outsaid.
'Nuffsaid.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1256775' date='Apr 26 2007, 09:26 AM'][b][/b]

[mod]Hi, we don't link to anti-Catholic websites which misconstrue Catholic teaching and use strawman arguments to say that we believe that we earn salvation, which we don't believe. -Raphael[/mod]
[b][/b]

This is a great article, says in a better way what Catholics here all need to know.[/quote]



anywho, if i'm in mortal sin i know i'm going to hell unless i confess my sins and am absolved, or by God's grace he somehow forgives me at my moment of death (confession by desire in extreme circumstances?). otherwise, if i'm without mortal sin i know i'm good to go and will only be in purgatory, but will eventually be in heaven. I'M SAVED!

[Budge]

[quote]you don't need to reject Jesus to follow Buddha, that is out of one's own ignorance.[/quote]

Are you one of those Zen Buddhist Catholics?

The avatar's a hint;)

Anyhow Buddhism and Biblical Christianity are opposed.

Do you realize when you reach the ultimate goal of the Buddhist "Nirvana", your very personality and "who" you are ceases to exsist?

It is interesting to me how many of Satan's religions [the New Age teaches this as well] basically teach annihilation of the human soul in different forms.

[Budge]

I was going to answer your question earlier but had to get off computer.

Here's my example:


[quote]The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know.[/quote]

Reciting the formula doesnt get you saved, its the state of your heart, being actually repentant and turning oneself over to Jesus Christ. There are people who may answer an altar call or recite the sinner's prayer and not truly been saved. If the Holy Spirit is not in them, if they are not truly children of God, they are not saved.

Chances are all the people you listed were never saved: Ie they showed no fruits of salvation. They did NOt become new creatures in Christ and if they were fire-bombing churchesm, rejecting Christ, joining Mormonism were serving Satan. Now a saved Christian can be in a state of severe sin, ie compromsing their Christian faith, but the Holy Spirit WILL be dealing with them.

Most of the senarios you list such as people totally renouncing Christ, and fire bombing churches show people with no evident fruits of salvation.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Budge' post='1258469' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:57 PM']I was going to answer your question earlier but had to get off computer.

Here's my example:
Reciting the formula doesnt get you saved, its the state of your heart, being actually repentant and turning oneself over to Jesus Christ. There are people who may answer an altar call or recite the sinner's prayer and not truly been saved. If the Holy Spirit is not in them, if they are not truly children of God, they are not saved.

Chances are all the people you listed were never saved: Ie they showed no fruits of salvation. They did NOt become new creatures in Christ and if they were fire-bombing churchesm, rejecting Christ, joining Mormonism were serving Satan. Now a saved Christian can be in a state of severe sin, ie compromsing their Christian faith, but the Holy Spirit WILL be dealing with them.

Most of the senarios you list such as people totally renouncing Christ, and fire bombing churches show people with no evident fruits of salvation.[/quote]

Nice try of dodging the question.

Now answer it, please.

[Guest T-Bone]

Unless, Budge, are you saying that you can think you've earned salvation, but in actuality, have not?

[Mateo el Feo]

Duplicate post

Edited April 28, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[Mateo el Feo]

We're all waiting for the answer, Budge. In their heart of hearts, 100,000 people were really convinced they were saved. How many have assurance?

The answer is...

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1258469' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:57 PM']Now a saved Christian can be in a state of severe sin, ie compromsing their Christian faith, but the Holy Spirit WILL be dealing with them.[/quote]

..in purgatory if they die right after?

a 20 year old does the altar call and is truely repentent. he becomes a good pastor until he's 50, then firebombs a church and dies. if he is not saved, he went through those 30 years of being a good pastor thinking he was saved but never was?

a 20 year old does the altar call and is truely repentent. at 21 he firebombs a church. he truely repents and becomes a good pastor for 50 years and dies. saved or not saved?

a 20 year old firebombs a church. he does an altar call and is truely repentent. he becomes a good pastor and dies at 50. saved because he repented and was forgiven his sins right?

so if 10 people make an altar call and are truely repentent, they all think they're saved, unless someone commits a severe sin in the future. so it's a mystery until it happens or until they die?

what kind of sin will make it so that you were never saved?

i thought you can commit any sin and still be saved? do you need to confess and repent again first? can you just commit sins your whole life until you think you're gonna die, then confess and repent?


sorry to sound so sarcastic, but i would really like to understand what the logic is..

Edited April 28, 2007 by johnnydigit

[Starets]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1258604' date='Apr 28 2007, 06:37 AM']..in purgatory if they die right after?[/quote]

She doesn't believe in the biblical doctrine of Purgatory. So they'd probably go directly to Hell. They would not pass GO, they would not collect $200.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1258625' date='Apr 28 2007, 07:32 AM']She doesn't believe in the biblical doctrine of Purgatory. So they'd probably go directly to Hell. They would not pass GO, they would not collect $200.[/quote]
No, no, she means that the Holy Spirit is dealing with them here on earth, convicting them of sin, etc. Because he or she is "saved" they won't be going to hell.


I always thought the whole idea of once-saved-always-saved was a huge cop-out though. It just doesn't jive with our natural sense of justice and order, but so many get around that by saying that someone who commits a serious mortal sin was "never saved to start out with." Please.

[homeschoolmom]

So how would you ever know that you are not actually saved?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1258643' date='Apr 28 2007, 08:13 AM']So how would you ever know that you are not actually saved? [/quote]
You wouldn't. You would really never know.

The thing is, we are very much like the prostitute the prophet Haggai marries ... we fall again and again, and through our sins break fellowship with God and our brothers and sisters. It is by God's grace, through confession and absolution, that our relationships are restored, both with him and with others. The parables of the prodigal son, the lost coin, and the lost sheep all illustrate this same concept, that when we separate ourselves from God he longs for reconciliation with us, he woos us back to himself, but he still desires us to choose Him. We face this same choice, again and again, of whether to love God or not. OSAS denies the realities of our relationship with God, that it is not a one-time choice to love him, but an ongoing, day by day, minute by minute decision to follow or not follow, to accept his grace or to reject it.

[Starets]

I was always uncomfortable with OSAS as a tweenaged fundamentalist, for all the reasons outlined above. There were a lot of mini-confessions I would say to God. I still do as part of my own personal Compline service I came up with. But now as Catholic I have the additional grace and blessing of the sacrament of confession. I just wish I had the humility to make use of it more often.

[johnnydigit]

there must be more. it makes no sense whatsoever. there must be something we're missing. with the tens of thousands of people who believe in being SAVED, how could they not wonder or experience these inconsistencies?

we need to actually ask a knowledgeable protestant - hold on i'll be right back with one hehe

=============

ok well surprisingly so far no one can agree or give an adequate explanation. even some of the bible study groups are just more of a free-for-all, "think whatever you want to" kind of thing.

Edited April 28, 2007 by johnnydigit

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]But now as Catholic I have the additional grace and blessing of the sacrament of confession. I just wish I had the humility to make use of it more often.[/quote]

Amen.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1259013' date='Apr 28 2007, 04:30 PM']there must be more. it makes no sense whatsoever. there must be something we're missing. with the tens of thousands of people who believe in being SAVED, how could they not wonder or experience these inconsistencies?[/quote]

This reminds me of a radio show I was listening to once. It was a local Christian station (No Catholic one sadly) where they had weekly little talks about morals and such. This one was about being saved. The woman talking was the wife of a minister of a Church. She gave her history. She had been through two religions before she met her husband, and then upon meeting him he showed her the true "faith". She then accepted Jesus and was 'saved'. She married him and for about 10 years they lived happily ever after. Then one day, she was talking with her friends about another woman who had recently made an 'altar call' when it struck the woman. She wasn't truly saved. She couldn't believe it! She never realized, that over the past 10 or so years, she had never truly given her life over to Jesus. Yes, she was 'strong' in her faith, she lived a good life, ect... But she wasn't 'saved'. So, she then made an 'altar call' again or whatever and 'truly' gave her life to Jesus and was 'saved' this time.

Just listening to her talk made me want to both laugh and cry. I wish they had a call in number for her, because I justed wanted to ash how she was sure she was actually 'saved' this time? She was wrong before, so how is she sure she's saved this time/

[johnnydigit]

you can make multiple altar calls? sounds like going to confession and getting a kind of absolution, except it's not certain.

well for the ones that can't find a reasonable answer, they say to rely on faith. sounds like a cop-out to me. Catholicism is based on faith and reason and everything can be explained using both, imo. they're making it sound like if you can't find reason, just have faith. how are you supposed to convert people like that? if you don't buy it, who will?

[Sojourner]

I was a Protestant for 26 years.

Yes, you can do multiple altar calls. And there is no agreement between denominations or even within many denominations about the nature of justification, the relationship of justification to sanctification, the meaning of baptism, the meaning of communion, and so on. The individual believer is led by the Holy Spirit, and comes to his or her own individual conclusions about such things. You then go through a complicated process of finding a church that most closely fits with what you believe. However, many churches have little to know written-out doctrine, leaving much to the discretion of the individual believer.

[Budge]

[quote][b]The thing is, we are very much like the prostitute the prophet Haggai marries[/b] ... we fall again and again, and through our sins break fellowship with God and our brothers and sisters. It is by God's grace, through confession and absolution, that our relationships are restored, both with him and with others. T[/quote]

Yep I agree GOMER is like the Catholic Heirarchy.