Question I Would Like To Ask A Catholic Too...

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Budge' post='1259280' date='Apr 28 2007, 09:04 PM']Yep I agree GOMER is like the Catholic Heirarchy.[/quote]


yeah that's what I meant.

[Guest T-Bone]

I still find it funny that Budge has yet to tell us how many people from the question were actually saved...

[Katholikos]

In case anybody's interested, altar calls were invented in the 19th century. Not biblical, no sireeeee. Sinner's prayer? Don't know when it was invented. Not biblical, no sireee. Sola Scriptura (the Bible Alone) is our only source of faith and practice. Sure, it is. :

Once Saved, Always Saved was invented in the 16th century by Martin Luther, who wrote that if we commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, we can't be separated from God. Forget those commandments, folks!

Hey, if you don't like what you believe, believe whatever you like!

Likos
An escapee from Protestantism

Edited April 29, 2007 by Katholikos

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1259278' date='Apr 28 2007, 08:03 PM']I was a Protestant for 26 years.

Yes, you can do multiple altar calls. And there is no agreement between denominations or even within many denominations about the nature of justification, the relationship of justification to sanctification, the meaning of baptism, the meaning of communion, and so on. The individual believer is led by the Holy Spirit, and comes to his or her own individual conclusions about such things. You then go through a complicated process of finding a church that most closely fits with what you believe. However, many churches have little to know written-out doctrine, leaving much to the discretion of the individual believer.[/quote]

converts are a gift, and some of the best catholics too. you may not know it but you guys know and understand how they think a lot better than we do, which means you can relate and explain things a lot better.

i used to be agnostic and even atheistic, and i was surprised to find that many people who grew up in the faith couldn't understand how an atheist thought. it came up when i was watching an episode of Wife Swap(?) and the show was about an atheist family and christian family, where the christians couldn't understand how the atheist mom thought and i thought it was simple.

so.. i dunno. maybe we're supposed to use our crooked pasts for good.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1259482' date='Apr 29 2007, 11:10 AM']so.. i dunno. maybe we're supposed to use our crooked pasts for good.[/quote]

That's a good thought, and I'd love to bridge that divide somehow. Right now, it's just with my own family. Hopefully someday they'll understand more why I've chosen Catholicism.

[Akalyte]

Budge I pray the holy spirit budges your ignorance.


What You Must Do to Be Saved
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we "earn" (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what "Bible Christians" teach; see Jas. 2:24).

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).

Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).

Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).

We do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8–9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8–9).

Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" (Phil. 2:13). John explained that "the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3–4, 3:19–24, 5:3–4).

Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5–6, Rom. 11:22–23, 1 Cor. 15:1–2; CCC 1854–1863). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23).

Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10, Gal. 5:19–21).

Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Rom. 2:6–8).

Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849–1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11–12).

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved," you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me."

[Akalyte]

Btw, budge and people like budge are not "bible christians" they are "personal interpretation" christians.

[Akalyte]

bump

[Sojourner]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1259482' date='Apr 29 2007, 05:10 AM']converts are a gift, and some of the best catholics too. you may not know it but you guys know and understand how they think a lot better than we do, which means you can relate and explain things a lot better.

i used to be agnostic and even atheistic, and i was surprised to find that many people who grew up in the faith couldn't understand how an atheist thought. it came up when i was watching an episode of Wife Swap(?) and the show was about an atheist family and christian family, where the christians couldn't understand how the atheist mom thought and i thought it was simple.

so.. i dunno. maybe we're supposed to use our crooked pasts for good.[/quote]
I think you're right, that our crooked pasts give us a unique vantage point through which to view the faith.

And I think that those of us who have "varied backgrounds" are in a position in which we can communicate to people on both sides of the fence because we know the vocabulary and the thought patterns.


back on topic ... I wonder if Budge is ever going to respond to the points brought up here?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1259935' date='Apr 29 2007, 09:27 PM']back on topic ... I wonder if Budge is ever going to respond to the points brought up here?[/quote]I was really hoping budge would answer my simple question. Maybe she's not sure of eternal assurance.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1260011' date='Apr 29 2007, 08:13 PM']I was really hoping budge would answer my simple question. Maybe she's not sure of eternal assurance. [/quote]


I dunno ... I think she's too busy not debating in other threads.

[jckinsman]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1259482' date='Apr 29 2007, 06:10 AM']converts are a gift, and some of the best catholics too. you may not know it but you guys know and understand how they think a lot better than we do, which means you can relate and explain things a lot better.

i used to be agnostic and even atheistic, and i was surprised to find that many people who grew up in the faith couldn't understand how an atheist thought. it came up when i was watching an episode of Wife Swap(?) and the show was about an atheist family and christian family, where the christians couldn't understand how the atheist mom thought and i thought it was simple.

so.. i dunno. maybe we're supposed to use our crooked pasts for good.[/quote]
JD-Yes I will agree, in the fact converts are a gift! My mother was one ! I of course was a cradle-catholic. My mother taught me more then the CCD classes (post-vatican 2)

[cathoholic_anonymous]

My dad is converting soon!

[ttomm46]

No one can claim to know for 100% that they are going to heaven....Budge ..I heard one of your protestant heros Walter Martin claim that a serial killer in Michigan was going to heaven because he accepted Jesus earlier in his life.
What's wrong with that picture?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1256983' date='Apr 26 2007, 02:29 PM']No. And no. Here are the questions that fundamentalists should be asking: "Do you know that you are loved? And do you know if you died at this moment whether you would die in love?"

I could answer yes to both of those things. These are the relevant questions, the crucial questions. There is nothing more I need to know.
I know that Christ's merit is more than a Band-Aid. I know that it is not something to be stuck to the filthy and bleeding sores of my own sin as a way of disguising my flaws. I know that Christ's merit is a transformative and glorious power that is working in my soul as I type and that will continue to work in me unless I choose to walk away from Him. I know that real love is hinged on preferment, the ability to choose one thing over another, and therefore my love for Christ would mean nothing if I did not have te free choice to leave or to stay.

I cannot know that I am saved. But I can know that I am loved - and I can choose to respond with all my heart.

No, it means that they have great respect for a person's freedom of will, that God-given gift.
I don't do good things for the sake of getting to Heaven. I do good things purely because they are good. This is where Catholics differ sharply from fundamentalist Protestants: the fundamentalist believes that Heaven is a reward that comes when you sign on the dotted line. The Catholic believes that Heaven is something you become as well as a tangible place.[/quote]

Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so

This post actually speaks to something quite profound, i.e. the [i]point [/i] of being saved. As I believe another poster noted, the "end of man" is to know, love and serve God. The fact that God loves [i]us[/i] is probably the most sublime thought in the whole universe from the human perspective, and the fact that He has made a way for us to know, love and serve Him unutterably magnaminous.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and evermore shall be, world without end. Amen.

[jeffpugh]

Great post Akalyte. Just a quick question all... So what is an "altar-call"? I was once protestant, but of the Church of England kind. Nuff said there

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1260868' date='Apr 30 2007, 02:39 PM']Great post Akalyte. Just a quick question all... So what is an "altar-call"? I was once protestant, but of the Church of England kind. Nuff said there [/quote]

I think its where you stand in front of the congregation and declare yourself saved or something...

[ttomm46]

you go up in front and confess Jesus as your personal savior.

[johnnydigit]

after some preaching, he asks, "is anyone ready to accept Jesus in their lives right now? come on down, don't be afraid, come up and we'll give you some information on where to start.."

one time i was at one, and he asked that, and i was like, well sure i love and accept jesus, should i go down? hm. something doesn't feel right. nevermind. then i realized what it was..

[Budge]

Read Romans chapter 3.