Catholicism Vs. Orthodoxy - Moral Issues

[Mateo el Feo]

Agred: there are many splinter churches which claim to be Catholic or Orthodox. The difference lies in the fact that the Catholic Church has a central authority that can speak definitively on who is in communion and who is not. Without such an authority, who could judge the various splinter Orthodox churches?

Admittedly, the organization of the Orthodox communion is a bit confusing for an outsider. It doesn't help that the various members of Orthodoxy disagree so much on the status of other branches of Orthodoxy.

[ttomm46]

Actually the Catholic Church never Claimed to have A Pope as head of the Universal church till Leo declared himself head in 455AD......The Pope was known as first among equals till he took on himself the job as head of the church without consent of the East...I was Roman Catholic for 45 years.
As far as unity evry single Catholic church i attended in Denver was preaching different things.

St. Dominics was all about Liberation theology..Had women giving homalies....Spirit of Christ Catholic church..Fr' Ken Leone, actually told me in confesssion that i didn't have to tell my sins because Jesus forgave me..they were charasmatic....They actually had the Lynn Brothers..Two priests speak and say that if Hell exist no one actually goes there...Go to any big city and you only find diversity in Catholic teaching.

St. Katherines was traditional.....

tom

Edited April 30, 2007 by ttomm46

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260865' date='Apr 30 2007, 04:36 PM']Actually the Catholic Church never Claimed to have A Pope as head of the Universal church till Leo declared himself head in 455AD......The Pope was known as first among equals till he took on himself the job as head of the church without consent of the East...[b]I was Roman Catholic for 45 years.[/b]
tom [/quote]


While I dont have time to argue your point, and Im sure others will, why do people assume that "I was this..." is ever a credible argument?

[Mateo el Feo]

I don't want to side track the topic too much. If you'd like to discuss the Primacy of the Pope, it's probably better to start a new thread.

Suffice it to say, Denzinger's "The Sources of Catholic Dogma" cites writings which predate 455 AD, in which the Pope is understood as more than a mere "First among equals" (at least more than the Orthodox interpretation). Online sources such as Catholic.com have even more quotes.

[ttomm46]

I've read most.. i first signed on here to support what we have in common..but Roman Catholisim has grave errors such as indulgences..it's legalistic.

immaculate conception..1854 pope Pius the 9th I believe..Purgatory..Salvation through works..Theology has changed over the centuries.....I'm just telling why i left..I never believed a piece of brown or green felt would be giving me indulgences

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260865' date='Apr 30 2007, 05:36 PM']As far as unity evry single Catholic church i attended in Denver was preaching different things.

St. Dominics was all about Liberation theology..Had women giving homalies....Spirit of Christ Catholic church..Fr' Ken Leone, actually told me in confesssion that i didn't have to tell my sins because Jesus forgave me..they were charasmatic....They actually had the Lynn Brothers..Two priests speak and say that if Hell exist no one actually goes there...Go to any big city and you only find diversity in Catholic teaching.

St. Katherines was traditional.....

tom [/quote]All the way back to the beginning, in fact, abuses and heresies have occurred (just look at all the Church Councils, papal letters, etc). If a local priest is not Faithful to the Catholic Church's teachings, this in no way suggests a diversity of beliefs with no central authority.

For a secular comparison, look at US law. Plenty of people break US laws for one reason or another, yet no one suggests that alternative US governments exist which are equally valid to the real Federal Government.

It may be that each Orthodox priest can invent his own version of Orthodoxy. But, in the Catholic Church, priests have no right to lead the Faithful away from the Church's teachings. When they do, it is rightly considered scandalous.

[ttomm46]

What you just said is total garbage..We don't invent things like you people do.....I haven't met many Catholics who even attempted to live as Christians.....If you want me to list heresies of the Roman church just tell me.

You make statements that show your an ignorant person claiming each priest makes up his own thing..Sorry that's a Catholic practice.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260895' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:04 PM']I've read most.. i first signed on here to support what we have in common..but Roman Catholisim has grave errors such as indulgences..it's legalistic.

immaculate conception..1854 pope Pius the 9th I believe..Purgatory..Salvation through works..Theology has changed over the centuries.....I'm just telling why i left..I never believed a piece of brown or green felt would be giving me indulgences[/quote]You've read most...what?

As for the machine-gun list of grievances. They have no place here in this thread, whose topic is moral issues, not theological issues. If you truly have a theological point of disagreement, start a thread and make a solid case for your assertion. Suffice it to say, we disgree with your mischaracterization of the Catholic Faith.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260900' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:09 PM']What you just said is total garbage..We don't invent things like you people do.....I haven't met many Catholics who even attempted to live as Christians.....If you want me to list heresies of the Roman church just tell me.[/quote]No, there is no possible way to have a coherent debate regarding a list. Pick your strongest arguement. Otherwise, a new thread won't go anywhere. If you have any more theological issues with the Catholic Church, please understand that that is outside the current thread's topic and [i]start a new thread[/i].

If you'd like a suggestion for a single argument, let's start with marriage. You defend the "three strikes you're out" practice of Orthodox. I'll defend the indissolubility of Catholic marriage. Would you like me to start the thread?

Edited April 30, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[RezaMikhaeil]

1.) Orthodoxy doesn't "allow 3 marriages"! That's a far misconception, orthodoxy does allow for second marriages but it's a matter of circumstances. If a woman is cheated on by her husband, and is declared to be "the innocent party" involved, she has the option to remarry or if possible the option to stay with her husband with hopes of giving it a second opportunity.

Reza

[ttomm46]

Okl you want morality..Try homosexual priests and the way the church covers it all up..I was molested as a kid by a priest at St..Roses Catholic church in Carlisle Arkansas..Is that moral enough for you?

No answer i bet

Edited April 30, 2007 by ttomm46

[Maggyie]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1260914' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:20 PM']1.) Orthodoxy doesn't "allow 3 marriages"! That's a far misconception, orthodoxy does allow for second marriages but it's a matter of circumstances. If a woman is cheated on by her husband, and is declared to be "the innocent party" involved, she has the option to remarry or if possible the option to stay with her husband with hopes of giving it a second opportunity.

Reza[/quote]

Thanks for the info! Could you elaborate on the theological justification for that practice? In the Catholic Church I know remarriage is only permitted in the case of widowhood or annulment. Do the Orthodox do the same in the adultery situation you mentioned, ie declare the marriage was never firm in the first place? Maybe "annulment" is a very Roman term, but is it something like that? I've always found this difference between us to be very confusing.

[ttomm46]

the Catholic church hands out annulments like they are going out of style....Making re marriages much easier..when i told another priest when i was older what happened he said we are all human..there's your Catholic morality....im going to search the net and if i can find who was the priest back in 60 ill put his name here.Ok?

Edited April 30, 2007 by ttomm46

[Mateo el Feo]

I also thought that it was only two marriages for Orthodox, but someone cited the following website:
[url="http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp"]http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp[/url]
Quoting:[quote]The church will permit up to, but not more than, [u]three marriages[/u] for any Orthodox Christian.[/quote]
The website "goarch.org" claims to be the "Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America." Is this one of those "not really Orthodox" Orthodox churches? According to Wikipedia, they are in communion with and under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

If this is true, does this difference (i.e. two marriages vs. three marriages) constitute a difference in moral teachings among member Orthodox churches? I find it baffling that there doesn't seem to be an Orthodox church which believes that marriage is indissoluble, as taught by Our Lord Himself. I wonder when the Orthodox churches began to allow multiple marriages. Is there 2,000 years of history to back them up?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1260919' date='Apr 30 2007, 03:27 PM']Thanks for the info! Could you elaborate on the theological justification for that practice? In the Catholic Church I know remarriage is only permitted in the case of widowhood or annulment. Do the Orthodox do the same in the adultery situation you mentioned, ie declare the marriage was never firm in the first place? Maybe "annulment" is a very Roman term, but is it something like that? I've always found this difference between us to be very confusing.[/quote]

[quote]32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.[/quote][quote]9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."[/quote]

Jesus himself said that those who have unfaithful wives/husbands have the right to divorce. In regards to remarriage, I don't know how the orthodox church views it, as I'd never had to deal with it before... I know that it's a very rare thing, as nobody in my congregation is divorced and I'd never met a Copt [or any other practicing orthodox christian] that has been divorced.

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260920' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:28 PM']the Catholic church hands out annulments like they are going out of style....Making re marriages much easier..when i told another priest when i was older what happened he said we are all human..there's your Catholic morality....im going to search the net and if i can find who was the priest back in 60 ill put his name here.Ok?[/quote]The statistics disagree with your claim. In my own life, I have witnessed many people who left the church precisely because they couldn't get the "rubber stamp" annulment that they wanted.

But, now, we're side-tracking the issue, that the Orthodox churches provide members with either one or two divorce opportunities, with no Scriptural support for such a practice.

[ttomm46]

[it's part of SCOBA..you skipped my post of pedophile priests..how convenient...If your going to post something try to learn what your posting..I can take communion there..You should give up while your ahead...My experience as a kid being molested by some piece of garbage Catholic priest says all anyone needs to know about the church

by insisting on celibate Clergy..The Catholic church has created a whole army of pedophiles.

Edited April 30, 2007 by ttomm46

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260940' date='Apr 30 2007, 03:43 PM'][it's part of SCOBA..you skipped my post of pedophile priests..how convenient...If your going to post something try to learn what your posting..I can take communion there..You should give up while your ahead...My experience as a kid being molested by some piece of garbage Catholic priest says all anyone needs to know about the church[/quote]

Yeah, it does. It says that the Church has chaff amongst the wheat.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1260926' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:36 PM']Jesus himself said that those who have unfaithful wives/husbands have the right to divorce. In regards to remarriage, I don't know how the orthodox church views it, as I'd never had to deal with it before... I know that it's a very rare thing, as nobody in my congregation is divorced and I'd never met a Copt [or any other practicing orthodox christian] that has been divorced.

Reza[/quote]My understanding is that Copts probably do the same thing that Catholics do: they leave their church so that they can divorce. In fact, I was told that a problem for the Coptic Church in Egypt (where the government recognizes Church marriage laws as binding on Coptic citizens) was that those who couldn't obtain a divorce from the church would convert to Islam, with its more permissive practice of divorce. They may also convert in the hopes of winning child custody. Have you heard about this?

Curiously, this Wikipedia (link) article states:[quote]The Coptic Orthodox Church does not permit divorce.[/quote]I'm believe that divorce is allowed for disparity of cult or adultery, but probably extremely difficult to obtain. In any event, this just makes more questions for me. For example, does an Orthodox or Copt in his second marriage have the right to divorce because of disparity of cult or adultery? Why or why not?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1260811' date='Apr 30 2007, 03:32 PM']Disunity in Orthodoxy is a myth..there are always splinter groups claiming to be Orthodox.....there are over 600 Catholic chapels and churches in this country that claim to be true Catholics that aren't in communion with Rome.[/quote]

If a church is not in communion with Rome, it isn't Catholic, no matter what they call themselves. Who is a church in communion with that identifies it as true Orthodox?

Thanks,

Likos