Do You Really Think The Religion You Belong To Means You're Damned

[GodChaser]

I would like to see this debated.

Come Budge, Come Catholics. Lets see what all of you will say about this!

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think you guys like listening to budge so much because she says such unfounded things that it helps reaffirm yourselves.

plus she is pretty amusing i gotta admit.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1263650' date='May 3 2007, 09:40 PM']i think you guys like listening to budge so much because she says such unfounded things that it helps reaffirm yourselves.

plus she is pretty amusing i gotta admit.[/quote]
That she is.

BTW, this is FullTruth.

I decided to get my name change.

[prose]

I think that you need faith in God because that is what He Himself told us our salvation was dependent upon. I also believe that religion matters because otherwise He wouldn't have established such a clear authority in the Church.

[goldenchild17]

We need God. God's grace alone saves us. But our salvation is dependent on accepting the true God. The only way to know the true God is through His true religion.

Edited May 4, 2007 by goldenchild17

[desertwoman]

God

[carrdero]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1263644' date='May 3 2007, 10:24 PM']I would like to see this debated.

Come Budge, Come Catholics. Lets see what all of you will say about this![/quote]
Am I invited?

[N/A Gone]

GodChaser...your question automatically assumes a dangerous polemic between God and Religion. It just does not make any sense with the historical understanding of what religion is. The dirty psuedo-4 letter word that protestantism makes religion out to be is nothing more than the ramblings of a scorned lover looking back with a self-gratifying position.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1263965' date='May 3 2007, 11:07 PM']GodChaser...your question automatically assumes a dangerous polemic between God and Religion. It just does not make any sense with the historical understanding of what religion is. The dirty psuedo-4 letter word that protestantism makes religion out to be is nothing more than the ramblings of a scorned lover looking back with a self-gratifying position.[/quote]

Agreed

[got2luvjc]

well... if it was solely dependent on God, then it wouldn't matter if we were Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, because all 3 faiths believe in the God of Abraham... right?

[Budge]

Are you all going to preach to me it doesnt matter what you believe? That Jesus Christ is optional or the anonymous Christian nonsense that teaches Jesus saves everybody who is nice enough even if they dont believe in Him or acknowledge Him.

That as long as you are nice enough youll be going to heaven? {according to this logic I could have stayed UU, I was *nice* while UU in a very altruistic demanding career and still gone to heaven rejecting Christ}

Youve all taken pluralism to new levels.

Why even have this board then, one can be Catholic or not. Being Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim is "good enough"......

You do see religions the same I was taught in the UU...God on top of the moutain and all paths up to the top, are the different religions. {You all just think that Catholicism is the *best* path but believe the other religions are pathways to God, the latter== same as UUs}

Its not about religion, its about relationship with Jesus Christ.

It is interesting how church membership is so important to you folks, but when it comes to Christ, oh He is a "nice" 'option'.

When I was UU and Catholic I was going to hell. If I had died during those years, I know that is where I would have been.

I was "nice and sincere" but rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You folks cant claim you never heard the gospel. Christians here have linked to sites explaining it and hvae preached the gospel of grace to you.

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP DOESNT MATTER ...{I dont care if anyone here ever becomes a Baptist, it simply does not matter to me. What matters to me is that you are born again and have entered into a true relationship with Christ in faith.

RELATIONSHIP TO JESUS CHRIST DOES and YOUR RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. {are you going to accept or refuse?}

[RezaMikhaeil]

Budge: When did I say or suggest, "Are you all going to preach to me it doesnt matter what you believe? That Jesus Christ is optional or the anonymous Christian nonsense that teaches Jesus saves everybody who is nice enough even if they dont believe in Him or acknowledge Him"?

[Budge]

What is your position here?

Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?

[Aloysius]

what is godchaser aka fulltruth's position here, do you mean?

the Catholic position is the same as it's always been: it's absolutely necessary to be in communion with the Body of Christ, aka the Catholic Church, to truly know Christ; and it's absolutely necessary to know Christ to be saved. yet if you do not know Christ if it is not through your own fault, you will not necessarily be damned (then the question of whether there's any active salvation comes up, that's debatable, not defined, and speculative; the only thing we're sure of is that we are to act as if not evangelizing everyone will mean they are in danger of hell); any person who's fault it is that you do not know Christ is in danger of hellfire though!

I don't know what the point of all this is: but we believe the Catholic Church to be the Body of Christ, identical with Christ himself; and there is no separation between Christ and the Church; one cannot say "Christ alone without the Church" or "the Church alone without Christ"; the two are inextricably linked.

[LouisvilleFan]

I'm not even sure if it's worth replying to Budge since, for one, nobody in this thread ever suggested a relevantism, and second, because my past replies to Budge's comments have gone ignored.

But to set the record straight, a relationship with God through Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation. There's a whole document about it called Dominus Iesus (although I haven't read it yet). The only "exception" is that some people never hear the Gospel, or hear it in a way that isn't compatible with a message of forgiveness, so either they never had an opportunity to accept the Gospel or "rejected" the Gospel because the people who preached it to them were also raping their women or whatever. Ultimately, it's not about whether you actually get to say that salvation prayer, get baptized, or [i]do[/i] anything. It's about your relationship with God because all of us were created for God. Therefore, regardless of what other religion they might have been practicing and seeking God, anyone who receives eternal life receives it through Christ. Basically, only God knows if a non-Christian would accept the Gospel, and that's all the Church is saying when she says that non-Christians can be saved.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264088' date='May 4 2007, 07:06 AM']What is your position here?

Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?[/quote]

My position is this:

1.) God said to Moses that he'll have mercy upon who he has mercy and he wont have mercy upon who he wont have mercy. Being that we know [according to the Bible] that God is the same yesterday today and forever, this still applies.

2.) Jesus Christ gave us a clear path to getting to heaven, so rather then wonder... "Gee... is God going to have mercy upon me..." we don't have to wonder but we can be certain in his promise, that we'll get to paradise if we follow the path that has been given to us by Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ.

Challenge: I often hear people say, "None get to the Father but Through Jesus Christ" and interpret that to mean that none get to heaven unless they believe in the Christian faith that we believe to be true, perfectly. That's a very "western" interpretation and definately isn't universal and never has been, what is universal is that Jesus Christ is the only way that we get to the father.

If Jesus allows a Muslim [for example] into heaven, did that person not get there through Jesus Christ? It doesn't subtract from his divinity but adds to it [as every piece of mercy shown by Jesus Christ, because of his desire to show mercy adds to his divinity and proves that he is, indeed God! Now I'm not saying that Islam is the path, what I am saying is that Jesus is the path, but what seperates him from the God of the Qur'an is his mercy that is much greater then what Muslims could ever expect from their interpretation of what they believe God is...

Reza

[N/A Gone]

Figures, Budge drives this horribly off-topic.

[quote]Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?[/quote]This questions can take on numerous forms. The issue is present in every Christian field, from ecumenism, to theology, and greatly in the mission field. Faith confessions have different ideas as to what the answer is, but that answer effects how they relate to the world and how the relate to God.
I am going to address this answer from the perspective of Dr. Greg Boyd first. Dr. Boyd was my first mentor, a theologian that set the initial foundation to how I do theology, and how theology has moved from a mental exercise to something of the heart.
In the book Letters from a Skeptic, Dr Boyd addresses the objections set by his atheist father. In the process of the conversation, the issue was asked if “all non-Christians go to hell.” Initially Dr. Boyd is mature in admitting that this issue is “a lot of disagreement, even among evangelicals” admitting that he will be disappointed if he is searching for absolute certainty in resolving the issue.
The approach that Boyd decides to work from is from the known to the unknown. He calls this the “clear to the opaque.” He says that we do not know for certain what happens to those who die without Christ, it is opaque. In this Boyd works from five principles that he sets in determining his opinion on the matter.
The first principle can be summarized as an understanding that there are complexity of variables from which God interacts with us. Our perspective on reality is so small that we must just simply trust God although we do not see it. The second principle laid out by Boyd is the idea of the left hand of God, a doctrine that Boyd cites from Luther, but is in fact much older. The idea is that our predominate revelation of God is found in His Son. So if we have something from the entire biblical complexity, such as hell, or issues in the Old testament, we need to understand them as part of the greater mystery of God. A side of God or an aspect of God that we may not completely understand.
The third perspective Boyd introduces is in explaining to his father that there is no salvation outside of Christ. Boyd explains that this is the main theme of the New Testament. He does not expound on “how” the person is saved with Christ. He does not explain if a person needs to consciously acknowledge Christ, or if the sacrifice of Christ opens the door to everyone.
Boyd does acknowledge that the sacrifice of Christ embraces more that those who consciously embrace it. He cites the example of the old testament fathers of faith that were set as our examples of faith, yet did not know the name of Christ. He understands that in this God applies to them the sacrifice of Christ for other reasons that we do not understand. In this, to “go through” Christ is not exclusively to “believing in,” allowing for someone to be covered in Christ without knowing Christ. Boyd continues this line of thought to include Children, “retarded people” and others who are prevented from knowing Christ through no fault of their own. In conclusion, Boyd understands that God will judge people according to their hearts according to the light of truth which they did have to respond to, and according to the faith which was implicit in their hearts.
Boyd regresses from universalism to express the idea that the people who have not heard and believed in the gospel are in grave danger. In scripture we have a small amount to hold onto the hope that they can still find salvation, but we should still present a sense of urgency about expressing the gospel to these people. We know that an explicit faith in Christ will have salvation, but we are unsure about those outside the faith.
This is the perspective of one of the evangelical communities brightest minds, and one of their most compelling leaders. The next part of this paper I want to reflect on the thoughts of our present Pope, who at the time was known as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
In an interview with secular journalist Peter Seeward. The question he was asked was “How many ways are there to God?” In this, Cardinal Ratzinger answers
[quote]"As many as there are people. For even within the same faith each man's way is entirely personal one. We have Christ's word: I am the way. In that respect, there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way are identical in terms of consciousness and will, but, on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man"[/quote]
In this, the Cardinal is reflecting on a position called Lauterkeit which is that in all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human.
So the idea is not that other systems of faith are valid. But that someone can still be touched by grace, still find salvation while in those systems. Not because of those systems, and not always in spite of those systems. CS Lewis7 and other theologians have wrote that in the other myths of the world there are partial truths, those truths can led to a pursuit of other truths, and sanctifying grace.
Vat 2 teaches a few things here. In regard to protestants it is the understanding that in their eccesiologies there are variance of truths that can lead to sanctifying grace. The key is to find those truths and be open to the seeking of more truth. Not to be in these systems because they feel that it is enough. For to truly seek truth will bring you to more truth.
It has nothing to do with a denial of Christ. or simply being good. but by discovering the sanctifying grace. Plenty of people are good people but do not have grace. Thats a product of modernism. The individual people can discover grace. Not the people-groups overall. These communities do have partial truths. The world itself has partial truths. In romans Paul is able to convict the gentiles because they should be able to be moved towards grace simply by creation. Now, if a little Islamic boy is raised Islamic and is faithful to his faith and truly submits to truth and responds to it. I feel that grace can be found. The Holy Spirit moves all of creation towards Him. People in these systems can be moved by the spirit. Not because of these systems. Not in spite of them. As catholics we have more truth. We have the sacraments and the dogmas of truth. We have more truth expressed for us to react towards. But the key is still the reaction to grace expressed.
Paul says that the Lord has impressed his law on the hearts of men. This is called "natural law." It insures that no man has an excuse. Everyone will be held accountable for their actions, to the degree to which they have had the opportunity to know and accept the Truth. "To whom much has been given, much is required." I know Jesus Christ. I know his Church. I know what is True. Thus, much is required of me. But, for the Indian who never knew Christ and never will, he surely cannot be held to the same standard as me. It's impossible, and unjust. Thus, he is held accountable to the natural law imprinted on his heart. You don't have to know Jesus Christ to know that some actions are "good" and other ones are "bad."

[quote]“men of different nations are in possession light that God has given to people, especially in the fact that God has revealed Himself through nature/creation, and through prophets throughout history. It is human's duty to respond to the light/revelation that one has. I also believe that salvation only comes through grace, through calvary. So, if one is to be saved, somehow the merits of Christ have to be applied to him/her somehow.” [/quote]I believe this is the concept that has been presented in the sources I have provided to you with the numerous concepts. I will end by providing one more source.
[quote]"'Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.' Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."[/quote]

Here we see that we respond to grace, and that grace can be expressed in ways that we are unable to know or understand. Salvation is based on our ability to respond to the grace as it is presented to us. In this, the missionary has the task of exposing more grace to the people who have yet to hear the gospel. Give them more opportunities to respond to grace and be brought into communion with God.

[goldenchild17]

wanted to edit my post but I waited too long.... anyways, I believe both God and the Catholic Church are absolutely necessary. We need God's grace alone for salvation, but to recieve this grace we need to recieve the sacraments of the Catholic Church which alone are the conduit of this grace.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the bible only says if you reject jesus you're damned. i don't think any of us are wise enough to know how one can truly reject him. is hearing a damnation preach as you walk through campus enough to say, gee i don't want to follow Jesus. Did that person really reject Jesus in a way that means anything? and if you're trying to discern the faith, is that enough to reject if you happen to die while discerning?

the bible never says if you don't accept him because you were unfamiliar that you would be damned. i suggest reading and thinking carefully the different between rejecting and not accepting, in teh passages of the end of Mark, John 3:16 where he goes on to define condemnation, and when Jesus says in John "i told you i am. unless you accept that, you're doomed". these all dleal with proactive rejectment where the person knew what they were rejecting.

just something to consider...

[got2luvjc]

I think budge may / may not have been referring to my post... what I said isn't what I actually believe, I guess I was just playing devils advocate... partially because the question proposed confused me to begin with.... *shrug*

I DON'T believe that any path leads to heaven... certain paths do, certain don 't