Do You Really Think The Religion You Belong To Means You're Damned

[thessalonian]

GodChaser,

Stop thinking in terms of dichotomy and you will understand Catholicism. It's not God or religion. Christ built a church which is the "pillar and support of the truth". If one is in line with that Church (religion) that most certainly has a bearing on one's salvation. That Church is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has the full teaching of what to be obedient to God means, for it is infallible in faith and morals. We are told in scriptures that we can know the truth and the truth sets us free. So what our beliefs (i.e. our religion) is makes a difference. Further, the truth was revealed to the Church as a whole and so an individual thinking they can extract it correctly from a book is rather impossible. The truth is far bigger than the human mind, yet so many humans create a truth and exalt it as god. Such a truth is not supernatural and is a false truth.

[Budge]

[quote]I DON'T believe that any path leads to heaven... certain paths do, certain don 't[/quote]

So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?

[got2luvjc]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 03:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

ok, first of all, don't talk to me like that. "you and your pals". Grow up.

2nd, I didn't say there are more than one religion that get you to heaven (as in more than christianity), i just meant that if A,B, and C get you into Heaven, then sometimes people do A and B, some just C, and some accomplish all 3

example of a path that probably won't get you into Heaven: being agnostic (but no one can say if someone does / doesn't go to Heaven)

also note that I said "I", not "everyone on phatmass"

Edited May 4, 2007 by got2luvjc

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1264161' date='May 4 2007, 11:08 AM']the bible only says if...[/quote]


See, that is why there is the problem. Theology based on "the bible only says" does not work. Typically theology is a cute mental exericise for many, but when it moves to the practical bases of say.."lil kid in india" then you cant just throw the sola's around.

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 02:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

proving once again that Budge does not read what I wrote.

I ADDRESSED THIS!!!!!!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264081' date='May 4 2007, 08:46 AM']CHURCH MEMBERSHIP DOESNT MATTER ...{I dont care if anyone here ever becomes a Baptist, it simply does not matter to me. What matters to me is that you are born again and have entered into a true relationship with Christ in faith.

RELATIONSHIP TO JESUS CHRIST DOES and YOUR RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. {are you going to accept or refuse?}[/quote]

Well, Church membership ALONE doesn't matter obviously, but Church membership can affect how well you accept AND LIVE OUT the gospel. I mean, some churches think artificial birth control and remarriage after divorce are no big deal. When people in those churches commit those mortal sins, who is going to absolve them, since they do not have a valid ministerial priesthood? (I know you are going to say they can go directly to God, but remember that Jesus delegated authority to the apostles, and only the Catholic and Orthodox churches have valid apostiolic succession). And how are they going to make their Easter duty if they have no valid ministerial priesthood to consecrate the Eucharist?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 02:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

There is only one path, one way, one truth, one light. Only the truth sets men free, only grace saves. The question is does one have to have perfect knowledge, understanding, and belief in that one way or is one simply accountable for the light and grace that God has given each individual. I go with the latter and leave it up to God to judge who goes to heaven because he knows what and and grace HE has given them. Every man has God's laws implanted in his heart, which is by grace. Every man can see nature calling out to the glory of his name. The sun shines on the good and the bad and so all are accountable for some level of understanding of him, which is truth. Error has no salvific value, nor does ignorance. But it can be excusable if God has not given one an opportunity or the grace to understand for whatever reason, only known to him. Judge not lest you be judged budge.

[jeffpugh]

Well GodChaser, I gotta compliment you on your first post on the new name. It really does spark a good question and debate! I'm glad that a lot of people made some input here. First, before I get into anything else, I should add my opinion: I voted God because ultimately it is up to His mercy whether we enter into eternal life or not. The other part is whether WE want eternal life or not, cause in the end, people send themselves to hell because they do not want to have an everlasting relationship with God. God can give mercy to those who seek the truth but have no access to Christ. We won't know till the end of time anyways... But! We must not leave these people ignorant! We should preach the Gospel as if they can't live without it! They will come love our Lord Jesus when they hear the fullness of truth that Mother Church has to offer. Only through the Catholic Church can one fully come to know Jesus because the Church is the Body of Christ.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1264476' date='May 4 2007, 05:40 PM']See, that is why there is the problem. Theology based on "the bible only says" does not work. Typically theology is a cute mental exericise for many, but when it moves to the practical bases of say.."lil kid in india" then you cant just throw the sola's around.
proving once again that Budge does not read what I wrote.

I ADDRESSED THIS!!!!!![/quote]
Ignore Budge... I think we should start blocking her out for now on... the thing she just whined about was answered twice! Just continue on with our Phatmassing and address what comes up otherwise, until Budge grows up and learns to be civil with us. Apparently, her sincerity is lacking if she can't read all of the posts!

[GodChaser]

Thank you for debating this.

I voted being obedient to God's word, because right now, I am finding freedom in living in the word alone.

I'm Already to Job 28 for anybody asking.

Last night I did fall in my sins, but I got up again through application of the Word.

I plead the blood on my heart, mind, strength, and soul, and I proclaimed my victory in this matter because I am more than a conqueror through Christ Jesus.

I want to leave these scriptures for everybody to think about.

[quote name='"Ephesians 4:5' date=' KJV"']One Lord, one faith, one baptism,[/quote]

One Lord - kurios - 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has
power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence,
with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

One Faith - pistis - 1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a
conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and
divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and
holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and
ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal
salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is
the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in
the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence)
whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on

One Baptism - baptisma - 1) immersion, submersion
1a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
1b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on
confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation,
obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified
for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up.
This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism
the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that
they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
1c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as
commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins
and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by
the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the
fellowship of Christ and the church.

Hmmm - This says that Christ is the lord alone, and we are to have faith in him, and to be baptized in immersion.

It's that, or those pesky greeks were just plain wrong and sinful! Ignorant Church Fathers writting such things. We can be sprinkled now - even if that means contridicting the church fathers, because the Pope says we can be sprinkled!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1266401' date='May 6 2007, 09:48 PM']It's that, or those pesky greeks were just plain wrong and sinful! Ignorant Church Fathers writting such things. We can be sprinkled now - even if that means contridicting the church fathers, because the Pope says we can be sprinkled![/quote]

Well, if the Council of Antioch can dispense gentiles from the need for circumcision....

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1266403' date='May 6 2007, 08:52 PM']Well, if the Council of Antioch can dispense gentiles from the need for circumcision....[/quote]
Not the same, because I can go in scripture and show you where that is.

Where does it say they can change God's way for Baptism?

[jckinsman]

Being obedient to Gods word is listening and doing ALL HE has to say or asks us to do! Who interpets the correct way? Some say "the church Christ left to us" Some say "I interpet the correct ,way guided by the holy spirit". Remember without authority, there will be no unity, without unity we can never become one, and that's what Christ calls us to do, right? So what's the answer? Who do go to if your not sure which way to go? What if your own free will gets in the way of the Holy Spirit? JC

[scardella]

First, asking whether it's God or religion is a false dichotomy.

Second, my understanding of the answer comes from Luke 12:48:
[quote name='Luke 12:48']Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.[/quote]

To put it basically: you are responsible for informing your conscience as best as you can and following it. Ultimately, all people are to search for Truth and to live in accordance with the Truth as best as they can. For Catholics, who have been given the fullness of Truth, we are bound to obey the Church, natural moral law, and form our consciences and act accordingly. For the theoretical isolated person who was "raised by wolves" or the equivalent, he is still bound to obey his conscience and search for truth as best as he can. For anyone in between, they are to search for truth and act accordingly as they discover it. The usual things can interfere with this process: emotions, cultural/personal/national/political/religious loyalties, threats of violence, etc. For non-Catholic Christians, this means following "Biblical precepts", natural moral law, etc. If someone were convinced of the fullness of truth, and were actually able to overcome the non-logical/philosophical barriers, and did not convert, then there'd be a problem.

However, I must add as an addendum, that if someone goes to heaven, the grace comes via the merits of Jesus through Holy Mother Church whether the eternal mercy of God brings a Catholic, Protestant, or non-Christian to heaven. I would think to say that all non-Catholics (or all non-Christians) go to hell automatically would conflict with God's Justice and His Mercy at the same time. How could someone be justly held responsible for something he has no way to know he is responsible?

"Faith comes from what is heard" - Rom 10:17
"Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven" - Mt 16:19

You might quote something like this: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mk 16:16
However, the one who believes has to have something to believe. Note that the above verse is immediately preceded by "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." - Mk 16:15

I believe this nicely dovetails with my first quote. If someone has been evangelized (barring barriers), they've been "given more" and so more will be required of them.

[Guest 基督耶蘇]

Shouldn't this be easily found in the Catechism?

Flip to the Glossary in the back and find Salvation

"The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone."
follow the note to paragraph 169

Part One The Profession of Faith
Article 2 We Believe
I. "Lord, look upon the faith of your church"

169 "Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: 'We bleieve the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our Salvation.' (Faustus of Riez, De Spiritu Santo 1, 2 PL 62, 11) Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith."

I think that's a pretty compact summary and an apt answer isn't it? We certainly receive grace through the sacraments Jesus gave to the Church, but it is "God alone" who through grace offers forgiveness of sins.
I don't think it is wrong to say you can find grace outside of the sacraments and thusly outside of the Church.

Did I misunderstand the question?

[johnnydigit]

why is there no option for neither? i thought the church teaches that those not fortunate enough to hear the Word of God will be judged on the natural law "written on the hearts" of every man. i.e. a guy on a remote island. obviously God isn't going to condemn him for being raised by wolves and not ever hearing about God. poor Mowgli..

[the Apologist]

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP DOESNT MATTER ...{I dont care if anyone here ever becomes a Baptist, it simply does not matter to me. What matters to me is that you are born again and have entered into a true relationship with Christ in faith.

RELATIONSHIP TO JESUS CHRIST DOES and YOUR RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. {are you going to accept or refuse?}
[/quote]

Ok first of all it would be better to avoid saying "Youve all taken pluralism to new levels" because you don't know the view of "all" of us. I understand your position... i am a convert from the Baptist Church... and believe me i didn't convert easily. I do believe that our relationship with Jesus Christ matters and our repsonse to the Gospel matters in regards to salvation. And it is precisely BECAUSE i believe this, i am Catholic... following what i believe and know to be the full, correct and complete response to the Gospel and a deep relationship with Jesus. In the Baptist Church i could not received His Precious Body and Blood nor adore Him in the Blessed Sacrament.

Now, i don't believe that Protestants are going to go to Hell just because they are Protestants. Why, even Catholics can go to Hell. We are all given different degrees of knowledge about God in our lives. There are muslims (and my dad was one by the way so i grew up in that environment) who never hear the truth about Jesus or anything about Him at all just like there are Catholics who don't know all that Islam teaches. Some don't learn about Christ because of their own fault and rejection of Him... some because they have never been given the opportunity. But they do believe in God and try to serve Him. This is what i believe St. Paul refers to in the beginning of the his letter to the Romans (Chapter 1).

This is something that takes a lot more than just a post to discuss and you should read the document Dominus Iesus. You can get it on line. But please, when you post things, don't just say "you all" this and "you all" that because you don't know what we "all" think.. only God knows that...and that is truth.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1266401' date='May 6 2007, 09:48 PM']Thank you for debating this.

hurch fathers, because the Pope says we can be sprinkled![/quote]

You know I killed this on your facebook...maybe I should post that here.

yea, I will...here it is

[quote]I appreciate the Eph 4:5, perhaps you can explain pluralistic individual denominations in context of Eph 4:4 and the other verses prior to the one you are using. Context is a proper hermeneutic.
The “one” talk is promoting unity, Eph in context (as with many of the Pauline writings) are a plea for unity.

Your context for pulling out the sola's is just bad exegesis. The passage is clearly about unity, unified in Christ, the baptism and the Spirit.

The context of immersion is wrong, the catholic teaching on immersion comes from the Didache.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm[/url]
In that, it says This (vii-x) baptism which is to be conferred "in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" in living water, if it can be had — if not, in cold or even hot water. The baptized and, if possible, the baptizer, and other persons must fast for one or two days previously. If the water is insufficient for immersion, it may be poured thrice on the head.”
Baptism from pouring has been happening since the early times. Catholics dont “sprinkle” we can pour. The “sprinkling” is a reminder of our baptism, but not the baptism itself.

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/baptismbaptists.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/baptismbaptists.html[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_of_Infant_Baptism.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Early_Teac...ant_Baptism.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Baptism_Immersion_Only.asp[/url]

I am kind of disappointed. I was expected a better objection than this friend.

Next time you have an "objection" let me know.[/quote]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1266512' date='May 6 2007, 11:31 PM']Not the same, because I can go in scripture and show you where that is.

Where does it say they can change God's way for Baptism?[/quote]

Probably the same place where sola scriptura is mandated......

[mortify]

The *only* way to the Father is through His Son. Salvation through Jesus means a number of things, it means the Blood that atones us, the commands that make us disciples, the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ that makes us Partakers in the Divine nature, but it also means being a member of His Body the Church. It is necessary to be a member of His Body to make it to heaven, and it is unfortunate that many have cut themselves off from Him, while continuing to think salvation is theirs. The Lord said "he who continues in error after the Church has corrected him is to be treated as a heathen," let us take His words seriously. Furthermore, the Church Fathers often reflected on Noah's Ark as the prototypical Church, those in it are saved and those outside are lost. It has also been solemnly defined that there is no salvation outside of the Church and that it is absolutely necessary to be a subject of the Pope. To a prot this is hard to swallow, but if you reflect on it it makes sense, being a member of Christ's body requires being in communion with the Holy Pontiff, who is the successor of St Peter and Vicar of Christ, charged with sheparding Christ's fold.

I admit these dogmas are difficult on our modern ears but these are truths wholly consistent with Scripture and Tradition.

Edited May 8, 2007 by mortify

[the Apologist]

[quote name='mortify' post='1267513' date='May 7 2007, 08:42 PM']The *only* way to the Father is through His Son. Salvation through Jesus means a number of things, it means the Blood that atones us, the commands that make us disciples, the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ that makes us Partakers in the Divine nature, but it also means being a member of His Body the Church. It is necessary to be a member of His Body to make it to heaven, and it is unfortunate that many have cut themselves off from Him, while continuing to think salvation is theirs. The Lord said "he who continues in error after the Church has corrected him is to be treated as a heathen," let us take His words seriously. Furthermore, the Church Fathers often reflected on Noah's Ark as the prototypical Church, those in it are saved and those outside are lost. It has also been solemnly defined that there is no salvation outside of the Church and that it is absolutely necessary to be a subject of the Pope. To a prot this is hard to swallow, but if you reflect on it it makes sense, being a member of Christ's body requires being in communion with the Holy Pontiff, who is the successor of St Peter and Vicar of Christ, charged with sheparding Christ's fold.

I admit these dogmas are difficult on our modern ears but these are truths wholly consistent with Scripture and Tradition.[/quote]

Amen brother. Veritas est. (i hope i wrote that right...lol)

One thing i would like to add for any non-Catholics who don't know, is that the Church doesn't delare or confirm any man in Hell, it only declares men in Heaven, i.e. saints. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't any men that will go to Hell or that the Church thinks that all men will go to Heaven. Church doesn't declare any, like for instance, Stalin, in Hell because no man can know for sure if that particular person repented or not before he or she died. For in fact, a great sinner could have repented, made a "perfect act of contrition" and received God's mercy before dying and thus be in Purgatory.

But of course this still doesn't effect the fact that the Catholic Church is the true Church, the fullness of the Truth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God and we are all called to be a part of His Body. Yes there are those who reject the Church and Her teachings knowingly and out right... which is a dangerous thing to do indeed, but however there are those that don't come to know Christ through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. That is where it could be possible that a person be saved... because if he had known Christ, he would have followed Him, but didn't know Him. Some say that a person in this situation could be given by God a chance to choose Christ right before he dies, a one time chance, i guess you could say sort of like how the Angels were given one chance. It is situations like this that make it so important that there are Catholic missionaries. But not missionaries that water down the faith or say that "it doesn't matter what you believe" because as it has already be stated, that sort of relativism cancels out all beliefs because if it doesn't matter what i believe, then why believe anything at all?

[scardella]

I rather like the way Lewis describes it in [i]The Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle[/i] when the soldier who follows Tash meets Aslan...