Moving The Ascension

[Tony]

my gripe with the whole thing is my Parish doesn't have a Mass on Thursdays, this Ascension inclided. I am not trying to critique the bishops on rather if the feast should be moved or not, but was any movement to try to encourage Parishes to have an optional Mass?

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Tony' post='1277157' date='May 18 2007, 11:06 PM']my gripe with the whole thing is my Parish doesn't have a Mass on Thursdays, this Ascension inclided. I am not trying to critique the bishops on rather if the feast should be moved or not, but was any movement to try to encourage Parishes to have an optional Mass?[/quote]

Having an "optional" Mass (I assume you mean a Mass of the Solemnity of the Ascension) on Thursday duplicates the feast, which is something that the Roman rite generally avoids. If it is transferred, its transferred. If it is on Thursday, it is on Thursday.

Your concern about daily Mass is a different matter altogether. Do they offer any public prayer, ie. Liturgy of the Hours or a communion service, or at least some devotional prayer?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1277168' date='May 18 2007, 10:18 PM']Having an "optional" Mass (I assume you mean a Mass of the Solemnity of the Ascension) on Thursday duplicates the feast, which is something that the Roman rite generally avoids. If it is transferred, its transferred. If it is on Thursday, it is on Thursday.

Your concern about daily Mass is a different matter altogether. Do they offer any public prayer, ie. Liturgy of the Hours or a communion service, or at least some devotional prayer?[/quote]

At one of the more orthodox Novus Ordo parishes in my area there is a Mass for Ascension on Ascension Thursday and on Sunday.

And I think it is a bad idea because, like Holy Thursday, Ascension is a feast that should be on a Thursday because it occured forty days after Easter which is a Sunday.

[Tony]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1277168' date='May 19 2007, 12:18 AM']Having an "optional" Mass (I assume you mean a Mass of the Solemnity of the Ascension) on Thursday duplicates the feast, which is something that the Roman rite generally avoids. If it is transferred, its transferred. If it is on Thursday, it is on Thursday.

Your concern about daily Mass is a different matter altogether. Do they offer any public prayer, ie. Liturgy of the Hours or a communion service, or at least some devotional prayer?[/quote]

they do have a Communion Service. about a year or so ago, they cut down on a few Masses when we were only down to 1 priest (we had 2 for the longest time)

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Tony' post='1277194' date='May 19 2007, 12:00 AM']they do have a Communion Service. about a year or so ago, they cut down on a few Masses when we were only down to 1 priest (we had 2 for the longest time)[/quote]

You might suggest the celebration of lauds in lieu of the communion serivce (or celebrate lauds with communion). The rite for communion celebrations in absence of a priest was recently revised to make it less "Mass-like" and I think the Church did a commendable job in shaping good public prayer for God's people who live with insufficient clergy.

[mortify]

Apotheon, I read some Greek orthodox parishes actually vote whether to have the old or new calendar, this type of stuff is going on everywhere. Right now the Greeks have it better than the Latins, but in time there will be no distinction.

[journeyman]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1276557' date='May 18 2007, 10:56 AM']Celebrating Ascension Thursday on Sunday destroys the only liturgical novena common to both East and West. That said, it also destroys the liturgical cycle, which is supposed to sanctify time, and not simply reduce worship to Sundays for the sake of convenience.[/quote]

Can you expand a trifle on the "liturgical novena common to both" concept? I know the Eastern and Western calendars don't match up exactly, but am not familiar enough with the differences to follow. If Easter is celebrated on a different date in East and West, then 40 days after Easter will also fall on a different date.

I agree with the idea that the liturgical cycle is supposed to sanctify time - Even I can see Easter + 40 = Ascension, since 40 is not divisible by 7, it couldn't ever "be" on a Sunday . . . but I'm also aware that many of the dates assigned by the Church to its feasts, memorials and days may or may not correspond to their original (or customary since Trent) date

Unless there are huge divisions of opinion, a discussion of sanctifying time probably is better located over in Transmundane

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='journeyman' post='1277470' date='May 19 2007, 12:49 PM']Can you expand a trifle on the "liturgical novena common to both" concept? I know the Eastern and Western calendars don't match up exactly, but am not familiar enough with the differences to follow. If Easter is celebrated on a different date in East and West, then 40 days after Easter will also fall on a different date.

I agree with the idea that the liturgical cycle is supposed to sanctify time - Even I can see Easter + 40 = Ascension, since 40 is not divisible by 7, it couldn't ever "be" on a Sunday . . . but I'm also aware that many of the dates assigned by the Church to its feasts, memorials and days may or may not correspond to their original (or customary since Trent) date

Unless there are huge divisions of opinion, a discussion of sanctifying time probably is better located over in Transmundane[/quote]

Most Eastern Catholic Churches now celebrate Easter on the same day as the Latin Church celebrates it.

[Aloysius]

And either way, the tradition is that all novenas come from the very first novena prayed by the Apostles in the Upper Room, when they locked themselves in and prayed for 9 days before Pentecost Sunday. I do believe a 9 day period between Ascension and Pentecost is common to East and West in memory of this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1277279' date='May 19 2007, 12:11 AM']Apotheon, I read some Greek orthodox parishes actually vote whether to have the old or new calendar, this type of stuff is going on everywhere. Right now the Greeks have it better than the Latins, but in time there will be no distinction.[/quote]
The "Old Calendar" versus the "New Calendar" issue in Orthodoxy has nothing to do with transferring feasts from weekdays to Sundays; instead, it concerns the use of the Julian as opposed to the Gregorian calendar. The Eastern Orthodox Churches would never destroy the liturgical cycle for the sake of convenience.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1277478' date='May 19 2007, 11:59 AM']Most Eastern Catholic Churches now celebrate Easter on the same day as the Latin Church celebrates it.[/quote]
This is a Latinization that effects Eastern Catholics in the United States and Canada, and it is a modern change (e.g., the Ruthenian Catholic Church only began celebrating Easter according to the Latin usage in the 1930s). That said, Eastern Catholics in most of the "old" countries continue to observe Easter (Pascha) on the same day as the Orthodox Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1277740' date='May 19 2007, 02:37 PM']And either way, the tradition is that all novenas come from the very first novena prayed by the Apostles in the Upper Room, when they locked themselves in and prayed for 9 days before Pentecost Sunday. I do believe a 9 day period between Ascension and Pentecost is common to East and West in memory of this.[/quote]
Yes, it is common to East and West.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1277845' date='May 19 2007, 07:56 PM']The "Old Calendar" versus the "New Calendar" issue in Orthodoxy has nothing to do with transferring feasts from weekdays to Sundays; instead, it concerns the use of the Julian as opposed to the Gregorian calendar. The Eastern Orthodox Churches would never destroy the liturgical cycle for the sake of convenience.[/quote]

Apotheon, however my understanding is accepting the new calendar was also [i]once[/i] considered unthinkable. I'm simply saying it's not like the East hasn't been affected, your traditions are being attacked as well.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1277849' date='May 19 2007, 08:01 PM']This is a Latinization that effects Eastern Catholics in the United States and Canada, and it is a modern change (e.g., the Ruthenian Catholic Church only began celebrating Easter according to the Latin usage in the 1930s). That said, Eastern Catholics in most of the "old" countries continue to observe Easter (Pascha) on the same day as the Orthodox Churches.[/quote]

Not accepting the Gregorian Calendar is disobedant to Pope Gregory XIII's bull Inter Gravissimas.

[Apotheoun]

StThomasMore,

The Popes have never required the Eastern Catholic Churches to adopt the Gregorian calendar for the liturgy. In fact, as I already pointed out, Eastern Catholics in their home territories continue to use the Julian calendar, and the Ruthenian Catholic Church in America only adopted the Gregorian calendar (by its own choice) in the 1930s, after the Pope Pius XI caused a schism in the Ruthenian Church by forbidding the ordination of married men to the priesthood in America.

Mortify,

I have never said that Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) are not under attack in American culture. What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.

God bless,
Todd

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1278041' date='May 20 2007, 12:20 PM']StThomasMore,

The Popes have never required the Eastern Catholic Churches to adopt the Gregorian calendar for the liturgy. In fact, as I already pointed out, Eastern Catholics in their home territories continue to use the Julian calendar, and the Ruthenian Catholic Church in America only adopted the Gregorian calendar (by its own choice) in the 1930s, after the Pope Pius XI caused a schism in the Ruthenian Church by forbidding the ordination of married men to the priesthood in America.

Mortify,

I have never said that Eastern Catholics (and Orthodox) are not under attack in American culture. What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Actually the Pope commanded all Christian Churches to switch to the Gregorian calendar in 1582 orwhatever year they recieved the letter.

[quote][b]Inter Gravissimas:[/b]
We thus remove and absolutely abolish the old calendar and we wish that all the patriarchs, primacies, archbishops, bishops, abbots and other leaders of Churches put into force for the reading of the divine office and the celebration of the festivals, each one in his Church, monastery, convent, command, army or diocese, the new calendar, to which was adapted the martyrology, and make use only of this one, as well as all the other priests and clerks, secular and regular, of the both genders, as well as soldiers and all Christians, this calendar whose use will start after the ten days removal of October 1582. As for those however which live in areas too distant to take knowledge of this letter in time, they are allowed to make such a change in October of the year which will follow immediately, namely 1583, or the next one, as soon, of course, as this letter will have come to them, in the manner that we indicated above and as that will be more abundantly explained in the calendar of the year of the reform.
[url="http://www.bluewaterarts.com/calendar/NewInterGravissimas.htm"]http://www.bluewaterarts.com/calendar/NewI...Gravissimas.htm[/url][/quote]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1278041' date='May 20 2007, 01:20 PM']What I have said is that neither of the two groups will alter their liturgical cycle in order to conform it to the pragmatic approach of Americans. The ongoing Protestantization of worship in the Latin rite is a sad thing to witness.[/quote]
Eastern Christians are not obligated to treat the Feast as a Sunday, they are not obligated to take the day off from work, they are not even obligated to attend the Liturgy. That makes it easier to leave the Feast as it is. The Law was made for man, and so were Feasts. If the Bishop determines that it is spiritually profitable to transfer the Feast so that more Catholics can celebrate it with the rest proper to its solemnity, there is nothing "Protestant" or suspect about that.

[quote]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

--Colossians 2:16-17[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1278048' date='May 20 2007, 11:44 AM']Actually the Pope commanded all Christian Churches to switch to the Gregorian calendar in 1582 orwhatever year they recieved the letter.[/quote]
Like many Papal disciplinary documents it asserts things that cannot actually be enforced outside of the Roman Rite.

By the way, the Melkite Catholic Church in Syria recently returned to the observance of Easter on the same day as the Orthodox (i.e., following the Julian calendar).



StThomasMore,

Your reading of disciplinary documents (e.g., "Quo Primum") seems to be at variance with the reading accepted by the present Pope, who has no problem with Eastern Catholics following the Julian calendar.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278051' date='May 20 2007, 11:55 AM']Eastern Christians are not obligated to treat the Feast as a Sunday, they are not obligated to take the day off from work, they are not even obligated to attend the Liturgy. That makes it easier to leave the Feast as it is. The Law was made for man, and so were Feasts. If the Bishop determines that it is spiritually profitable to transfer the Feast so that more Catholics can celebrate it with the rest proper to its solemnity, there is nothing "Protestant" or suspect about that.[/quote]
Although it is true that Eastern Christians do not have the Roman concept of "holy days of obligation"; nevertheless, if an Eastern Christian failed to attend divine liturgy for any period of time he would be considered have excommunicated himself.

The ongoing destruction of the venerable and ancient Roman rite by moving feasts to Sundays (e.g., Epiphany, Ascension, Corpus Christi, et al.) for the sake of convenience is a sad thing to see, and it also creates a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue. My Eastern Orthodox friends look at the present state of liturgical practice in the Roman rite and are repulsed by what they see happening (e.g., moving feasts around, clown masses, Barney masses, etc.). Moreover, the liturgy is intended not only to sanctify man, but also time and every other aspect of human existence. Relegating divine worship to Sundays is a Protestant practice.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I expect to see Christmas Sunday pretty soon.

[Era Might]

The moving of a Feast does not relegate worship to a Sunday, it moves the Feast to a Sunday. The Mass is still offered, and Catholics everywhere still pray and worship. The moving of the Feast makes it easier for Catholics to celebrate the solemnity on a day when they are better able to cease from servile labor, and can enter into the Feast with all proper attention. The primary purpose of a Feast is to celebrate it. The Church is here to sanctify souls above all else, and she has given her Bishops the authority to accomodate certain Feasts if they see an opportunity to better sanctify souls. Easter is celebrated on a different date every year. The Lord is not worried about the date that his Church establishes to celebrate a Feast, he is worried that we actually worship him, in spirit and in truth. If we celebrate his Ascension on a Thursday or a Sunday, we still celebrate his Ascension. The Church has the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and she is the only authority that may determine what is acceptable in her public worship. She has determined that it is acceptable for the Bishops to transfer Feasts with approval from the Holy See.