Moving The Ascension

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278154' date='May 20 2007, 04:24 PM']The moving of a Feast does not relegate worship to a Sunday, it moves the Feast to a Sunday. The Mass is still offered, and Catholics everywhere still pray and worship. The moving of the Feast makes it easier for Catholics to celebrate the solemnity on a day when they are better able to cease from servile labor, and can enter into the Feast with all proper attention. The primary purpose of a Feast is to celebrate it. The Church is here to sanctify souls above all else, and she has given her Bishops the authority to accomodate certain Feasts if they see an opportunity to better sanctify souls. Easter is celebrated on a different date every year. The Lord is not worried about the date that his Church establishes to celebrate a Feast, he is worried that we actually worship him, in spirit and in truth. If we celebrate his Ascension on a Thursday or a Sunday, we still celebrate his Ascension. The Church has the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and she is the only authority that may determine what is acceptable in her public worship. She has determined that it is acceptable for the Bishops to transfer Feasts with approval from the Holy See.[/quote]
We clearly are not going to agree.

That said, based upon your reasoning the Latin Church should simply move all its feasts to Sundays and be done with it. I thank God that I am no longer Latin Catholic.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I look forward to the day when Good Friday, Holy Thursday, All Saints, Christmas, etc., are celebrated on Sunday in the Latin Rite. I am sure that attendance at these services will be higher on Sundays than if they were celebrated properly.

[Era Might]

It is not Feasts that are moved, but Holy Days of Obligation, because the West has a more strict discipline than the East, and expects the faithful to cease from labor and treat these days as a Sunday. In a perfect world, we could all take off five days a year from work and treat each Holy Day of Obligation as a Sunday. The Church has given the Bishops permission to transfer certain Holy Days of Obligation to Sunday, to emphasize the importance of the Feast, and give the faithful a chance to celebrate the Feast with appropriate rest. This is a spiritual accomodation in the world today, when it is not easy to take days off at random, and when the world is not a Catholic society that gives these days off. The rule of law is the salvation of souls, because the law was made for man, and not man for the law.

[Apotheoun]

That is incorrect, the feast itself is moved.

Moreover, I would hardly describe the discipline of the West as "strict." In fact, discipline in the West at the present time is lax, that is, if it exists at all.

[Era Might]

Yes, the Feast is moved, but the Feasts that are moved are Holy Days of Obligation, not random Feasts. The other Feasts throughout the year do not obligate Catholics to cease from servile labor or to attend Mass. These obligations are attached to emphasize the importance of the Feast; in order to help Catholics in the modern world, the Bishops have the authority to transfer these Holy Days of Obligation to a Sunday, so that the aspect of rest and special attention are emphasized. The alternative for many Catholics is that they would not be able to take the day off from work, and would only attend Mass if they are able, but the Church wants to give the Feast more attention than that. These specific Feasts are special, and because Sunday is a recognized day of rest in society, the Bishops may use this to their advantage to transfer the Feast and highlight its importance.

[Apotheoun]

If you can move one feast, you can move them all. The Latin Church's liturgy continues to disintegrate, because the most important thing to the Latin Bishops is convenience. Ascesis is not about convenience.

The liturgy sanctifies time too, not just man.

[Era Might]

Easter is the Solemnity of Solemnities, and the date changes every year. The Church exists to save souls, and this is her primary consideration. This is not superceded even for the sake of time. St. Paul speaks on this in his letter to the Colossians:

[quote]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

--Colossians 2:16-17[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278176' date='May 20 2007, 05:16 PM'][. . .]

These specific Feasts are special, and because Sunday is a recognized day of rest in society, the Bishops may use this to her advantage to transfer the Feast and highlight its importance.[/quote]
What society are you talking about? All throughout the 1980s and 90s I had to work on Sundays. American society does not honor the Lord's Day.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278181' date='May 20 2007, 05:21 PM']Easter is the Solemnity of Solemnities, and the date changes every year. The Church exists to save souls, and this is her primary consideration. This is not superceded even for the sake of time. St. Paul speaks on this in his letter to the Colossians:[/quote]
The quotation from Colossians concerns Judaic festivals, not the Christian liturgy. Your misuse of this text mirrors the arguments I see from Protestants. The Christian liturgy is the fulfillment of the shadows of the Old Testament liturgy.

Moreover, your "argument" is a [i]reductio ad absurdum[/i], because it destroys the whole point of the sanctoral cycle, which is not simply the edification of man, but the sanctification of time. Time itself, like the rest of the cosmos, is to be offered to God.

[Era Might]

Sunday is a day off. That doesn't mean private companies will not require you to work, but as far as the government is concerned, there is no business on Sunday. That is why we do not receive mail. Most people have Sunday off.

Christian Feasts are also a shadow of what is to come; not the events which they celebrate (which are eternal), but the days and customs that have developed. In Heaven, we will not celebrate the Ascension fourty days after we celebrate Easter. There will be no time. We will be with the Ascension, that is, we will be with Christ, who is the substance of the Feast, not the day it is celebrated. The purpose of any Feast is ordered to the temporal, and the Church can accomodate them as necessary, to fulfill her mission of the salvation of souls.

Moving a Feast three days is no more a disruption of time as celebrating Easter a different date every year, which is sometimes a difference of weeks.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278184' date='May 20 2007, 05:24 PM'][. . .]

Christian Feasts are also a shadow of what is to come. In Heaven, we will not celebrate the Ascension fourty days after we celebrate Easter. There will be no time. We will be with the Ascension, that is, we will be with Christ, who is the substance of the Feast, not the day it is celebrated. The purpose of any Feast is ordered to the temporal, and the Church can accomodate them if necessary, to fulfill her mission of the salvation of souls.[/quote]
God NO!!!!! Everything that happened to Christ has been taken into the divine eternity.

That said, Christian liturgy is not a mere shadow; instead, it is the reality realized here and now. The liturgy (like the sacraments in general) contains what it signifies. In other words, past, present, and future meet in the divine liturgy.

As far as heaven is concerned, Eastern Christians believe that salvation is ever-moving (as St. Maximos said); and so, it is not static in a timeless sense. Only the divine essence is [i]adiastemic[/i] in the sense of being unmoved and unmoving. Man will never cease to move as he passes through the [i]aeons[/i] everlastingly.

[Era Might]

The Sacraments and the Liturgy make the eternal present, but the human rites that surround them are only a taste of the eternal. The Liturgy is an icon of the Heavenly Liturgy, which is beyond all imagination. There will be no Sacraments in Heaven; the Sacraments themselves will pass away. We will be with Christ, and we will not need Sacraments. We will see him face to face, but now we see him through a veil.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278189' date='May 20 2007, 05:33 PM']The Sacraments and the Liturgy make the eternal present, but the human rites that surround them are only a taste of the eternal. The Liturgy is an icon of the Heavenly Liturgy, which is beyond all imagination. There will be no Sacraments in Heaven; the Sacraments themselves will pass away. We will be with Christ, and we will not need Sacraments. We will see him face to face, but now we see him through a veil.[/quote]
As I said, we will not agree.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - The incarnation is the sacrament [i]par excellence[/i], and it can never end.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1278181' date='May 20 2007, 07:21 PM']Easter is the Solemnity of Solemnities, and the date changes every year. The Church exists to save souls, and this is her primary consideration. This is not superceded even for the sake of time. St. Paul speaks on this in his letter to the Colossians:[/quote]

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. This has NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand! Yes, the date of Easter changes every year, BUT IT IS ALWAYS ON A SUNDAY. This has no comparison to the moving of Ascension Thursday to a Sunday.

[Nunsense]

Here in Singapore we celebrated on Thursday and extra Masses were added to make sure everyone could attend.

In England, they moved it to Sunday - I know the convent I am entering said they wished it had stayed on Thursday.

I mean 40 days is 40 days - right?

Oh well....