Life Teen

[Mercy me]

When I was nvolved in the Lifeteen program we did address the matter of dress. We did it twice a year on average and we enforced on those who served the mass like ushers, readers, EMs, and gift bearers.

Dress is a constant struggle for us especially since we are in Florida. We tried to stick to the basics that the churches in Rome impose.

[Akalyte]

Now that's what I wanted to see. I just hope and pray they live up to it and not cloud it with all that "contemporary" stuff.

[inDEED]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1278790' date='May 21 2007, 06:20 PM']Now that's what I wanted to see. I just hope and pray they live up to it and not cloud it with all that "contemporary" stuff.[/quote]

You crack me up...

Keep on hoping and praying that all that "contemporary" stuff is left out of the Mass. Meanwhile, Lifeteen will continue its mission of leading teens closer to Christ - "contemporary" methods and all.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1278736' date='May 22 2007, 12:04 AM']When I was nvolved in the Lifeteen program we did address the matter of dress. We did it twice a year on average and we enforced on those who served the mass like ushers, readers, EMs, and gift bearers.

Dress is a constant struggle for us especially since we are in Florida. We tried to stick to the basics that the churches in Rome impose.[/quote]

Yeah, FL is a struggle for such things. I know I often saw shorts at my parish there, which I never understood. Especially since the A/C was on really high. I think it was partly to keep people from dressing immodestly.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1278685' date='May 21 2007, 06:40 PM']i do think kids [u]can want[/u] this at Mass.[/quote]

Of course they can, but they aren't going to make that decision right away. Teens need to establish their independence, and dressing how they want is part of that process. The good thing is that when they start making their own choice to dress more appropriately, it'll be done out of a desire to please God rather than obeying some dress code. If we keep telling them what to do, they never take ownership of their faith and they'll completely flake out when they go off to college.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1278695' date='May 21 2007, 06:53 PM']i hate to say it, but i wonder if there is a relationship between this and the protestant mentality of, "well Jesus doesn't care about (what you wear), it's about your personal relationship with our Lord and Savior!"
protestants are very good at snatching our youth away and influencing them with such things. if you've gone to non-denominational "services" you'd know what i mean.[/quote]

Sure there is, and this is one thing that Protestants have right. Isn't a contrite heart the sacrifice God desires? Didn't Christ create the sacraments in order to grow in relationship with his people? "I baptize you." "This is my body, given for you." "I forgive all your sins." While the church is a community, the sacraments are also very personal.

Protestants are good at "snatching away" young Catholics because they never belong to the Catholic Church to begin with. Sure, they go through the motions of First Communion and Confirmation, but few of them learn the faith from their parents and far fewer get a proper religious education. Nothing is explained; Catholics have to go out in search of answers. Meanwhile, they go to an Evangelical service and everything is explained! So, why keep going to Mass? (Sure, we know why, but we all catechized ourselves, which isn't something we can expect most people to do.)

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1278700' date='May 21 2007, 07:03 PM']anywho, they have a dress code sign posted at every door. it looks like one of those signs you'd see on an airplane. i think it is awesome and i wish every parish would have it. the way some people dress for mass is just FILTHY! alas i can't really blame them..[/quote]

To me, that sounds like a good way of telling a lot of people they aren't welcome. We enter the Church as sinners. Are there prequalifications for Baptism? Why should you be required to wear certain clothes to worship at Mass? I agree about recommending that people dress up, but requiring it seems to directly against the very nature of Christianity.

Edited May 22, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Pontifex]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1279000' date='May 22 2007, 08:52 AM']Of course they can, but they aren't going to make that decision right away. Teens need to establish their independence, and dressing how they want is part of that process. The good thing is that when they start making their own choice to dress more appropriately, it'll be done out of a desire to please God rather than obeying some dress code. If we keep telling them what to do, they never take ownership of their faith and they'll completely flake out when they go off to college.[/quote]


Teens need to be told what the boundaries are for everything. We don't just let them do what they want in order to establish independence. I communicate a minimum dress code for my parish, because it is very disrespectful and a near occasion of sin, mind you, for a sixteen or seventeen year old girl to come to mass with a mini skirt with her mid-drift exposed.

Asking for people to dress properly is the responsibility of the pastor. It is his job to protect the integrity and sacredness of the mass and that does have an external component to it. Our outward expressions communicate an internal disposition. That is in some sense how the sacraments work. (External sign of an inward grace.)

Is the heart the most important aspect of our being? Yes, who could debate that? That doesn't mean that we let the rest go to hell.

I know you said "Hell No." that a dress code isn't required. Try getting into St. Peter's Basillica with shorts on. Is that being unwelcoming or communicating a standard? The Church loves us and love makes demands. There is alot of room to breathe and move in that, but there is a minimal standard.

As a pastor, I will continue to address the issues of modesty with my people. Teens, middle-aged and the elderly, although I've never had an elderly lady wear a mini skirt.


Peace be with you. Good discussion here. Let us do it in love.

[Ora et Labora]

i think this should have been posted on the debate table. there have been lots of discussions and threads about LT. i think if you search around Akalyte, you'll find some good stuff.

[kujo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1279031' date='May 22 2007, 10:34 AM']Sure there is, and this is one thing that Protestants have right. Isn't a contrite heart the sacrifice God desires? Didn't Christ create the sacraments in order to grow in relationship with his people? "I baptize you." "This is my body, given for you." "I forgive all your sins." While the church is a community, the sacraments are also very personal.

Protestants are good at "snatching away" young Catholics because they never belong to the Catholic Church to begin with. Sure, they go through the motions of First Communion and Confirmation, but few of them learn the faith from their parents and far fewer get a proper religious education. Nothing is explained; Catholics have to go out in search of answers. Meanwhile, they go to an Evangelical service and everything is explained! So, why keep going to Mass? (Sure, we know why, but we all catechized ourselves, which isn't something we can expect most people to do.)
To me, that sounds like a good way of telling a lot of people they aren't welcome. We enter the Church as sinners. Are there prequalifications for Baptism? Why should you be required to wear certain clothes to worship at Mass? I agree about recommending that people dress up, but requiring it seems to directly against the very nature of Christianity.[/quote]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1279035' date='May 22 2007, 10:50 AM']Teens need to be told what the boundaries are for everything. We don't just let them do what they want in order to establish independence. I communicate a minimum dress code for my parish, because it is very disrespectful and a near occasion of sin, mind you, for a sixteen or seventeen year old girl to come to mass with a mini skirt with her mid-drift exposed.

Asking for people to dress properly is the responsibility of the pastor. It is his job to protect the integrity and sacredness of the mass and that does have an external component to it. Our outward expressions communicate an internal disposition. That is in some sense how the sacraments work. (External sign of an inward grace.)

Is the heart the most important aspect of our being? Yes, who could debate that? That doesn't mean that we let the rest go to hell.

I know you said "Hell No." that a dress code isn't required. Try getting into St. Peter's Basillica with shorts on. Is that being unwelcoming or communicating a standard? The Church loves us and love makes demands. There is alot of room to breathe and move in that, but there is a minimal standard.

As a pastor, I will continue to address the issues of modesty with my people. Teens, middle-aged and the elderly, although I've never had an elderly lady wear a mini skirt.
Peace be with you. Good discussion here. Let us do it in love.[/quote]

I think that, somewhere in between these 2 statements, is the way to go. It is woeful, in most Catholic circles, that teens and youth aren't properly catechized. Big scary words like "transubstantiation" and "epiclesis" and "concupiscence " are thrown around without proper explanation. Homilies are sometimes vague and unappealing; CCD/RCIA classes are taught by people who aren't fluid in Catholic teaching and youth ministry. And in come the Protestants, with their watered-down Bibles and "simple faith." The teens never know what hit 'em.

But, at the same time, we must recognize that the Church is an advocate, first and foremost, for Christ's love and Truth on this earth. It would be wrong for the Church to dumb-down the faith for anybody. With proper catechesis, there really isn't an issue to be dealt with. It just takes a bit of work and a whole lot of patience.

[Pontifex]

[quote name='kujo' post='1279058' date='May 22 2007, 10:35 AM']I think that, somewhere in between these 2 statements, is the way to go. It is woeful, in most Catholic circles, that teens and youth aren't properly catechized. Big scary words like "transubstantiation" and "epiclesis" and "concupiscence " are thrown around without proper explanation. Homilies are sometimes vague and unappealing; CCD/RCIA classes are taught by people who aren't fluid in Catholic teaching and youth ministry. And in come the Protestants, with their watered-down Bibles and "simple faith." The teens never know what hit 'em.

But, at the same time, we must recognize that the Church is an advocate, first and foremost, for Christ's love and Truth on this earth. It would be wrong for the Church to dumb-down the faith for anybody. With proper catechesis, there really isn't an issue to be dealt with. It just takes a bit of work and a whole lot of patience.[/quote]


What's the inbetween? I think my answer is right on the money.

[kujo]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1279095' date='May 22 2007, 01:02 PM']What's the inbetween? I think my answer is right on the money.[/quote]

With all due respect, padre, I think we have to be lenient with teens. It's true that clear-cut guidelines need to be established, but, as the other cat said, we have to kinda let teens be teens. It's inherent in their nature to want to rebel and be obnoxious (I know because I'm only a few years removed from my teens where I was the most annoying kid EVER!). The youth minister needs to put his/her foot down when egregious infractions have been made, but, by and large, it takes time to instill the sense of reverance and modesty and piety that most of us have into teenagers. It's a tight-rope that needs to be walked because if things are [i]too[/i] stringent, teens simply won't come. At least in my humble opinion, it's better to get them in the door and start working on there hearts rather than putting up barriers that make it harder for them to feel welcomed and comfortable.

I could've been misinterpretting your comments, though. Perhaps I'm wrong...

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1279035' date='May 22 2007, 09:50 AM']Teens need to be told what the boundaries are for everything. We don't just let them do what they want in order to establish independence. I communicate a minimum dress code for my parish, because it is very disrespectful and a near occasion of sin, mind you, for a sixteen or seventeen year old girl to come to mass with a mini skirt with her mid-drift exposed.

Asking for people to dress properly is the responsibility of the pastor. It is his job to protect the integrity and sacredness of the mass and that does have an external component to it. Our outward expressions communicate an internal disposition. That is in some sense how the sacraments work. (External sign of an inward grace.)

Is the heart the most important aspect of our being? Yes, who could debate that? That doesn't mean that we let the rest go to hell.

I know you said "Hell No." that a dress code isn't required. Try getting into St. Peter's Basillica with shorts on. Is that being unwelcoming or communicating a standard? The Church loves us and love makes demands. There is alot of room to breathe and move in that, but there is a minimal standard.

As a pastor, I will continue to address the issues of modesty with my people. Teens, middle-aged and the elderly, although I've never had an elderly lady wear a mini skirt.
Peace be with you. Good discussion here. Let us do it in love.[/quote]

As someone who has worked with and in youth ministry various levels, in the parish, diocese and regional level (and am also a post-teen ) Just wanted to say I agree Father.....very much so too! : You are right on.

[homeschoolmom]

Are we talking about modesty or formality?

[Mercy me]

[quote name='kujo' post='1279223' date='May 22 2007, 03:45 PM']With all due respect, padre, I think we have to be lenient with teens. It's true that clear-cut guidelines need to be established, but, as the other cat said, we have to kinda let teens be teens. It's inherent in their nature to want to rebel and be obnoxious (I know because I'm only a few years removed from my teens where I was the most annoying kid EVER!). The youth minister needs to put his/her foot down when egregious infractions have been made, but, by and large, it takes time to instill the sense of reverance and modesty and piety that most of us have into teenagers. It's a tight-rope that needs to be walked because if things are [i]too[/i] stringent, teens simply won't come. At least in my humble opinion, it's better to get them in the door and start working on there hearts rather than putting up barriers that make it harder for them to feel welcomed and comfortable.

I could've been misinterpretting your comments, though. Perhaps I'm wrong...[/quote]

I beg to differ. You absolutely should not be lenient with teens. They are learning the boundaries of what is proper. It is how the rules are that is key here.

Being in Florida myself, I understand that dress is a challenge here. In no small part because f how relaxed the dress is everyday here. I work for a huge Fortune 50 company and yet in Florida we wear jeans to work. It would never happen in New York. When jeans is business attire, proper dress at mass gets to be a challenge. However, there are minimums that must be enforced. We used to have sweaters available for the girls who couldn't remember that backless is not right. I suggest something simular.

[Seven77]

i believe Father is right on the money... modesty needs to be addressed and it's very pastoral to do so.

kujo, if properly explained in love, with catechesis and on their level---wouldn't that be the way to go?

[Seven77]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1279289' date='May 22 2007, 03:42 PM']Are we talking about modesty or formality?[/quote]

not sure...i thought both.

[inDEED]

[quote name='kujo' post='1279223' date='May 22 2007, 12:45 PM']With all due respect, padre, I think we have to be lenient with teens. It's true that clear-cut guidelines need to be established, but, as the other cat said, we have to kinda let teens be teens. It's inherent in their nature to want to rebel and be obnoxious (I know because I'm only a few years removed from my teens where I was the most annoying kid EVER!). The youth minister needs to put his/her foot down when egregious infractions have been made, but, by and large, it takes time to instill the sense of reverance and modesty and piety that most of us have into teenagers. It's a tight-rope that needs to be walked because if things are [i]too[/i] stringent, teens simply won't come. At least in my humble opinion, it's better to get them in the door and start working on there hearts rather than putting up barriers that make it harder for them to feel welcomed and comfortable.

I could've been misinterpretting your comments, though. Perhaps I'm wrong...[/quote]

kujo - having been involved in ministry at various stages - I have to say that I COMPLETELY agree with you.

It truly is better to get them in the door and start with their hearts. As much as I respect with Father has to say on this matter - I do feel that you are right on the money.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1279355' date='May 22 2007, 06:01 PM']not sure...i thought both.[/quote]
Well, modesty MUST be addressed... It's awful what passes for clothing.... That said, I think that if modesty is covered ( ) then perhaps we could cut a little slack on formality.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1279341' date='May 22 2007, 06:41 PM']Being in Florida myself, I understand that dress is a challenge here. In no small part because f how relaxed the dress is everyday here. I work for a huge Fortune 50 company and yet in Florida we wear jeans to work. It would never happen in New York. When jeans is business attire, proper dress at mass gets to be a challenge. However, there are minimums that must be enforced. We used to have sweaters available for the girls who couldn't remember that backless is not right. I suggest something simular.[/quote]

However, employers have considerably more leverage over their employees. Most people don't want to get fired, so they'll follow the rules whether they like it or not. Church, on the other hand, is optional for most teens. If it's not worth the trouble, they'll go to a Baptist church or no church at all.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1279035' date='May 22 2007, 10:50 AM']I know you said "Hell No." that a dress code isn't required. Try getting into St. Peter's Basillica with shorts on. Is that being unwelcoming or communicating a standard? The Church loves us and love makes demands. There is alot of room to breathe and move in that, but there is a minimal standard.

As a pastor, I will continue to address the issues of modesty with my people. Teens, middle-aged and the elderly, although I've never had an elderly lady wear a mini skirt.
Peace be with you. Good discussion here. Let us do it in love.[/quote]

Well, St. Peter's is a different situation. Anybody with an ounce of common sense and dignity would dress appropriately in that setting, regardless of their faith.

I see your point... but let's say someone showed up to Life Teen for the first time wearing something inappropriate. Would you tell them to leave? Perhaps it depends on how bad it is. Apparently there's a parish in Orange County that literally won't let you in the door unless you pass their dress code. I consider that offensive. Maybe the situation in Orange County is different, but one of my best friends, although he's Baptist, grew up in LA and says they used to wear t-shirts and shorts to church all the time because it was too hot.

Of course, people who are habitually underdressed should be confronted and, if worse comes to worse, told they can't come back unless they dress right. But in that case, at least they've been given fair warning and a chance to "repent."