Your Thoughts As Catholics

[dairygirl4u2c]

i didn't much of a response last time i asked, so i thought i'd try again.
what's your thoughts on the matter as it pertains to the validity or lack theof of the CC?

www.nderf.org
www.near-death.com

the people from there often talk about past lives. they talk about how religion does not matter.
of course, i wonder what the people actually were told about religion, as it could be that God does not look at it strictly necessarily if you're not Catholic but it does matter. like doing extra nice things for your spouse isn't required, but it should be done and if it's not then you're missing the point. there's only one catholic lady who had the experience who insists the catholic church is what it says. she agreed with me that it could be that God wants us to come to him fully by faith, and to be told everything would nullify the point of life as humans. she also said that near death expriences are not final, as they never fully died, and it's like only sittin in the car and not driving it.
and as for reincarnation, some say it's such that the people are understanding other people's lives, and mistake it for theirs.

but when it comes down to it, they say religion does not matter, and reincarnation occurs (which is against CC teach's why I bring it up) and you could argue I'm rationalizing to make the CC true.

thoughts?

[dairygirl4u2c]

there also might be others who say the CC must be true, but not as adamently or well argued as she does.
there seems to be proportionally to the population those who say it's not true, and those who say it's false, proportionally to the general population. there's also mormons who had the experience who insist their religion is true. there are many who leave the CC after the expereince, but also many who revert or become catholic, just like there is many who become christians etc.

in a way, most of the people who come back shouldn't be expected to know all the answers. they just know the importance of love. and they often have ot figure out what that means exactly itself. many claim not to know the answers. people's conceptions or misconceptions of the church might influence htem after the experience unduly.

[LouisvilleFan]

I'd consider near-death experiences just another category of private revelation that isn't easily studied from a scientific perspective and therefore difficult to accept for much more than speculation, even when they sound genuine. Even saints have made predictions that turned out not to be true or were misunderstood. Obviously, these kinds of experiences could be used by Satan to cause people to stray from Christ.

Always good to remember that just because something is supernatural doesn't mean it's from God.

[prose]

I think that Satan comes disguised as an angel, and these are probably the perfect example of that.

[prose]

[quote]Religions are a bunch of self serving carp! Yes, I became convinced that "Organized Religions are a Huge Fraud" perpetrating a hoax on humanity. I have so much anger towards organized religions. I was raised a devout Catholic, but after my NDE, I am very disillusioned. I lost one of my best friends, a pastor who was like my little brother because I couldn’t stand the BS he was telling people.[/quote]Umm... This is a perfect example.

[quote]At the time of my "death" I was a Catholic, but I have since then expanded my views to a more universal one of love not being dictated my dogma or religion, since I firmly believe that when it comes down to it, god is pure energy, pure love, and nothing more, but S/he will manifest in whatever form is most loving and comforting to you. My religious practice vary, currently I have been attending American Indian ceremonies, but I do not hold myself to any one path since I can see the truth in all faiths now! I was too strict in my Catholicism before.[/quote]

Edited June 18, 2007 by prose

[prose]

Why does no one have a "bad" near death experience? Why does no one see hell? Everyone seems to go to this illusion of heaven to come back and separate themselves from "religion".

False lies in a pretty package:



[quote]Religion is not as important as some people think

Doctrine and creed and race mean nothing. No matter what we believe we were all children joined under one God. The only rule is God's true law: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (May Eulitt)

God does not care which religion is best. God does not care what religion people practice. They are all a blooming facet of the whole. All religions refer to the same God. (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

One man who had a near-death experience realized that the "God" of his religious background wasn't anything like the reality. He learned that it doesn't matter if people call him God, Allah, Great Spirit or whatever, he is one and the same. (Dr. Liz Dale)

Everyone, religious or not, believing in God or not, transitions to the spirit world as part of the natural process of life. Just as one does not need to be religious to live in the physical world, one does not need to profess a particular faith to live in the spirit world. (Nora Spurgin)

Heaven is about deeds, not creeds. Therefore, persons of many cultures and religions form the societies of heaven. (Emanuel Swedenborg)

Religious beliefs have little to do with what we experience in the transition from one realm to another, except that we are allowed to see briefly the teacher or guru that we followed. Regardless of cultural or religious beliefs, we have the same basic experience at death. (Betty Bethards)

God is not dependent on our belief, for our belief or disbelief in God does not affect God - only us. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

God cares little about our religious affiliation or church membership. Love is not limited to any one religion or even religion at all. Religions are cultural institutions but love is universal. (Kevin Williams)

Kenneth was born and raised a Southern Baptist. As a child, he first made his commitment to Christ and was baptized with water. He was a member of the church all his life. He was saved, on the path toward heaven, a believer, a follower of Jesus, and he knew this assured him a place in heaven. Nevertheless, he had a NDE and it sent him straight to hell. (Rev. Kenneth Hagin)

God is not a member of any church or religion. It is the churches and the religions that are members within the vastness and the glory that is God. There is no one religion just as there is no chosen people or person, nor any single way of regarding what cannot be fully comprehended. We are all sons of God in the sense that we are all souls of God's creation, without gender, without form, without nationality, complete and whole and perfect as we explore the never-endingness of God's wonderment. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

Having faith in Christ doesn't matter as much as having the faith of Christ. It is foolish to think that Jesus will carry your cross for you because he taught people that they must take up their own cross. Having the faith of Christ means to practice unconditional love. (Kevin Williams)

There is a lot of solid evidence in the Bible itself that the Bible has serious and devastating errors in it. (Kevin Williams)[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

actually there are a significant number who have bad experiences
[url="http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html"]http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html[/url]

usually they are explained away as a means for souls to get the bad to realize the good. no one says definitively though that hell is not forever. they strongly speculate that it's not though. it seems one could stay in hell forever even as per defined by the experiences described.
or, at hte least, one could not be in perfection, and if you define that as "hell" then there ya go. it doesn't have to be necessarily fire and brimestone, or a total lack of God. not necessarily all or nothing. and, in fact, the idea that you are like a vase in heaven and only take in what you earned capacity for, that's reconcilable with these accounts. these things... hell, heaven, justification, final judgment are so vaguely defined that it's hard to say whether a lot is even necessarily at odds with catholicism.

Edited June 18, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[thessalonian]

I am somewhat open to SOME NDE's being authentic. It seems to me that these NDE's must end before the illumination of the mind and the judgement. Thus they are still in the realm of this world in that they are not given to know the fullness of the truth. If they had been they would know much more than they come back knowing.

Edited June 18, 2007 by thessalonian

[Dreamweaver]

On EWTN, there was an episode where Mother Angelica interviewed a priest, Father Steven Scheier who had a negative NDE. [url="http://www.frtommylane.com/video.htm#fr_steven_scheier"]This page[/url] has links to view the episode. I don't have time to watch it now, but it sounds interesting.

I will admit that I'm a bit skeptical about NDE. Doctors have known that many phenomena associated with NDE can be explained by physiological changes in a dying brain. Of course, if God wishes to "gift" a person with NDE, I see no reason why He wouldn't. I guess I'm kind of a fence sitter.

[jeffpugh]

I'm a bit of a fence sitter myself on the grounds that NDE could be anything ranging from mental problems, the devil trying to trick and God working to change someone's heart, IMHO.

[Jaime]

I know a guy here in Minnesota who was a contractor and had a near death experience where demons were dragging him down to hell. The doctors had proclaimed him dead in the hospital for about 2 minutes. While the demons were apparently clutching at him, he begged God for another chance. He said the demons were laughing at him saying his chances were over but he kept begging. The doctors were able to bring him back and he converted to Catholicism.

Now I can't speak to the authenticity of his experience. I can speak to how authentically he believed it. And really that is what matters. You get chills when you hear his story.

[HollyDolly]

Never had a NDE,but if my late father ever had any I don't know,he never said.I say this because my dad was in the military for 33 years,and fought in WW2,and i know he must have had some pretty close shaves and was wounded several times.
He also used to have a dream in which he would here a beautiful woman's voice singing.I don't recall if he mentioned any particular song,but I do recall him saying he never saw her face,only heard the voice.Whnever he had this dream,someone in the family would pass away. His mother and a great aunt also had the same gift,but grandma would dream of a room with a table in it,and on the table was a vase of flowers, and her Aunt Louise would dream she was walking down the street,and a horse drawn hearse would pass by and in it was a coffin.

[Budge]

I know two people who had NDE.

One was a New Ager who was a co-worker of mine who worked as a counselor.

One was a male relative.

I believe NDE are a devise used by Satan to lull a person into deception.

My co-worker was an out and out New Ager who saw the tunnel full of her relatives and had the feelings of "peace"

Same thing for my male relative, who died an agnostic interestingly enough...who doubted Chrsitianity...

I worried that he never was converted to Jesus Christ because he figured when he died, hed be going back to that nice place.

{Ive had nightmares about that}

Both saw beings of "light" when they were having this occurence.

[url="http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/rfsm-nde.html"]http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/rfsm-nde.html[/url]

[prose]

[quote name='Dreamweaver' post='1298052' date='Jun 18 2007, 07:06 PM']On EWTN, there was an episode where Mother Angelica interviewed a priest, Father Steven Scheier who had a negative NDE. [url="http://www.frtommylane.com/video.htm#fr_steven_scheier"]This page[/url] has links to view the episode. I don't have time to watch it now, but it sounds interesting.

I will admit that I'm a bit skeptical about NDE. Doctors have known that many phenomena associated with NDE can be explained by physiological changes in a dying brain. Of course, if God wishes to "gift" a person with NDE, I see no reason why He wouldn't. I guess I'm kind of a fence sitter.[/quote]

hmmm. Interesting video. Still not sure what to think. I know this much: I wouldn't base my salvation on these experiences.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='prose' post='1298623' date='Jun 19 2007, 07:22 PM']hmmm. Interesting video. Still not sure what to think. I know this much: I wouldn't base my salvation on these experiences.[/quote]

Amen. We base our salvation on The LORD Jesus Christ. Not feelings of peace and light and deceased relatives.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what about the experience invalidates jesus christ, especially as indicated in the bible? many people verify that jesus exists, but next to no one denies it. many say it does not necessarily matter if you believe, true. i realize this is blasphemous to modern christianity, but again, what in the bible says you have to necessarily believe? the bible says we are saved through him but does not say you have to believe. the bible does not say if you are not a christian you will be condemned.

i'd argue the same points about the CC, how the evidence for it could go either way, and that this is just another peice of circumstancial evidence.

please provide the proof texts you think are indicative from the bible.

[dairygirl4u2c]

as per the link provided by budge.
the bible says those who reject jesus have issues. john three sixteen ish says that condemnation is when you reject because your ways are wicked. not because you didn't know better etc.
the experiences only say sin is often not what we think it is, not that it doesn't exist.
the experience give hellish experiences to some.

it seems that the link is just another example of someone not liking something that conflicts with their personal theology. they quote vaguely associated verses from the bible. they point out the being of light verse, but that could be applied to anything, even the experience that Paul had, or at any rate legitimate experiences. it seems if there was something seriously wrong with the experiences, that they would have found better biblical evidence for it and stated it. so, that's why i make the challenge to others who are afraid of this.

it seems people are simply afraid to trust in it becaus eof uncertainty, not because of anything definitive. more out of fear than anything else. which isn't altogether wrong but not a substantial reason to me. enough not to trust completely, but not enough to not give it notable credence.

Edited June 20, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Paddington]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1298799' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:57 AM']but again, what in the bible says you have to necessarily believe? the bible says we are saved through him but does not say you have to believe. the bible does not say if you are not a christian you will be condemned.[/quote]

(English Standard Version) John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, [i]but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. [/i]

Just throwing that out there.

[Budge]

[quote]it seems people are simply afraid to trust in it becaus eof uncertainty, not because of anything definitive. more out of fear than anything else. which isn't altogether wrong but not a substantial reason to me. enough not to trust completely, but not enough to not give it notable credence.[/quote]

Christians are supposed to TEST spirits yes or no?

[HollyDolly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1298869' date='Jun 20 2007, 09:22 AM']Christians are supposed to TEST spirits yes or no?[/quote]

Yes I suppose we are to test spirits. There are many people who have died and may at the last accept Jesus as saviour.
Only Jesus knows who is in Heaven or Hell,who is saved and who is not.