Praying For Purgatory?

[kujo]

Hey ya'll. I was thinking the other day...would it be okay for a Catholic to [b]pray for purgatory[/b]? I mean, if purgatory is a place where we go to prepare our souls for heaven, is it something we can strive for? I don't really know very much about the Church's teachings on purgatory, so anything you have to say on the matter is greatly appreciated.

[Budge]

Why?

Dude, purgatory is HELL.

Fire...CHECK

Seperate from God {which by the way is against Hebrews 13:5 and a slew of other verses]....CHECK

Pain and suffering beyond that of earth.......CHECK.

When someone is in purgatory well HELL {being lied to by the devil that one day theyll get out since they are not under God's protection} its too late for them.

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1303350' date='Jun 27 2007, 03:40 PM']Why?

Dude, purgatory is HELL.

Fire...CHECK

Seperate from God {which by the way is against Hebrews 13:5 and a slew of other verses]....CHECK

Pain and suffering beyond that of earth.......CHECK.

When someone is in purgatory well HELL {being lied to by the devil that one day theyll get out since they are not under God's protection} its too late for them.[/quote]

Bah bah. Didn't really need you to jump in on this one considering, well, you're wrong.

[prose]

Why pray to be just good enough? Why want to strive for minimal? I suppose you [i]could[/i] pray for it, but why?? We are all striving to be saints in heaven. You would be far better to pary for heaven.

[homeschoolmom]

to that

[Aloysius]

purgatory is not separate from God. it's on a path towards God, it's being consumed in the fires of God's love and purifying wrath.

hoping for purgatory is synonymous with hoping for heaven, though ultimately your highest hope should be that you can be fully purified while on earth.

[Brigid]

[quote name='kujo' post='1303355' date='Jun 27 2007, 02:42 PM']Bah bah. Didn't really need you to jump in on this one considering, well, you're wrong.[/quote]


sorry, that just made me laugh. it was a good question, though, and it got some good answers.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='kujo' post='1303317' date='Jun 27 2007, 12:21 PM']Hey ya'll. I was thinking the other day...would it be okay for a Catholic to [b]pray for purgatory[/b]? I mean, if purgatory is a place where we go to prepare our souls for heaven, is it something we can strive for? I don't really know very much about the Church's teachings on purgatory, so anything you have to say on the matter is greatly appreciated.[/quote]

I appreciate your sincerity, Kujo, but praying that you may be in purgatory is not a good prayer to make. It is as if you were laying in bed with every bone in your body broken, and you praying that only the bone in your little toe would be healed. To pray for Purgatory is indeed to pray that God saves you "by fire", but we must pray for what we want. You should pray not for your little toe to be healed, but rather for your whole body.

This is an analogy, and a very imperfect one. Where the analogy breaks down we arrive at another important truth. To pray only for your toe to be healed is not necessarily to reject the idea of your whole body being healed. Yet to pray for Purgatory is to reject grace. It is one making peace with the fact that one is not a saint. Making peace with not being a saint is to reject God's grace because God has made infinite grace available to us --> that is enough to make anybody a saint.

One might think that one is just trying to be "realistic" about all this. This idea is a very modern one and a very blasphemous one. It is to say implicitly that what we can do on our own steam, what our dispositions are, what we feel like and what we can imagine encompass everything that is truly real. This leaves God and his grace out of the equation.

We do have sins in our lives, and they must be purged. Suffering comes with that. We can, in this life, experience the purgatory fires in penance. We can (and should!) continue to, as Paul says, beat our bodies to bring them under submission to Christ...and when we do that we will find that we have become like Christ. We have been united with his Passion, and we will be united with him in is Resurrection.

For yourself, focus on this life. Christ said not to worry about tomorrow; today has enough troubles of its own. Focus on allowing Christ to make you Holy.

Boy, as I wrote this I all of a sudden felt so convicted! I had better get busy! I am sorry, Lord, for tarrying on my own road. Bless me and re-make me into a new creation, a glorious child of God.

[thessalonian]

If ya aim for the end of the runway you might fall short. Better to head in a bit.

[saint_wannabe]

read Saint Nicolas of Tolentino's biography. hes patron saint of souls.

read the picture
[img]http://www.catholic.org/saints/ff_images/3.jpg[/img]

Edited June 28, 2007 by saint_wannabe

[Budge]

I read the above and just SIGH. Saying some "magic" prayer is not going to get a stadiums worth of people into heaven.

You know since the Popes have the power to set people free from Purgatory, granting indulgences etc, any normal guy with compassion, would toss open the door to let them all out at least once a week.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Budge' post='1304057' date='Jun 28 2007, 03:37 AM']I read the above and just SIGH. Saying some "magic" prayer is not going to get a stadiums worth of people into heaven.

You know since the Popes have the power to set people free from Purgatory, granting indulgences etc, any normal guy with compassion, would toss open the door to let them all out at least once a week.[/quote]


Budge,

God also has all these powers in measures infinitely greater than any pope. And he can see it all, so there is no room for doubt.

Yet he does not just empty Purgatory. Are you accusing God of lacking in compassion? Far be it from you to judge God.

If you judge the Pope in this matter, you judge God too. For shame, budge.

Sincerely,

Philip

[Budge]

[quote]Yet he does not just empty Purgatory. Are you accusing God of lacking in compassion? Far be it from you to judge God.

If you judge the Pope in this matter, you judge God too. For shame, budge.[/quote]

There is no such thing as Purgatory, no divine waiting room, no place of in betweens, you are either Gods child and in heaven or you have ended up in hell after death.

The doctrine of Purgatory goes against SEVERAL of God's promises to His children in the BIble.

I am 100% sure there is no Purgatory and that God will never leave or forsake me and leave me in some horrid place like Purgatory with fire and suffering beyond that of earth, that YOUR saints have attested to.

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: [b]for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.[/b]

Edited June 28, 2007 by Budge

[rollingcatholic]

Budge-

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

(Might explain why you left the Catholic Church for the Unitarians...)

Those in purgatory are neither left alone by, nor forsaken by God. This has been stated several times in this thread alone, and uncountable times by the teachings of the Church.

[Budge]

[quote name='RC _' post='1304418' date='Jun 28 2007, 01:55 PM']Budge-

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

(Might explain why you left the Catholic Church for the Unitarians...)
[b]
Those in purgatory are neither left alone by, nor forsaken by God.[/b] This has been stated several times in this thread alone, and uncountable times by the teachings of the Church.[/quote]

Oh come on what are you trying to pass off on me now?

ONE OF YOUR SAINTS: ST CATHERINE GENOA:

[url="http://www.theworkofgod.org/saints/Lives/CatGenoa.htm"]SAINT SAYS DIFFERENT[/url]
[quote][b]Separation from God is the chief punishment of Purgatory.[/b] Wherein Purgatory differs from Hell.[/quote]
[quote]5th. “Unsurpassingly severe is the fire of Purgatory.[b] The pain of loss or separation from God, which the souls also suffer in Purgatory, is far more severe.” [/b] The soul separated from the body craves with all the intensity of its spiritual nature for God. It is consumed with an intense desire to fly to Him. Yet it is held back. No words can describe the anguish of this unsatisfied craving.[/quote]

Fire and burning. NOW WHAT KIND OF LOVING GOD AFTER A HUMAN BEING SUFFERS A HORRIBLE DEATH, SENDS HIS CHILD TO A PLACE LIKE THIS? None of us humans would even send our pet dog to this place nonetheless a child. Hell is different. You folks are trying to teach that God sends his children to be BURNED.

[quote]|Table of Contents | Previous | Next |

What is Purgatory?

It is a prison of fire in which nearly all souls are plunged after death and in which they suffer the most intense pain.

Here is what the great Doctors of the Church tell us of Purgatory:

So grievous is their suffering that one minute in this awful fire seems like a century.

St. Thomas of Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says that the fire of Purgatory is equal in intensity of the fire of Hell, and that the slightest contact with it is more dreadful than all the possible sufferings of this Earth.

St. Augustine, the greatest of the Holy Doctors, teaches that to be purified of their faults prior to being admitted to Heaven, souls after [b]death are subjected to a fire more penetrating, more dreadful than anything we can see, or feel, or conceive in this life.
[/b]
“Though this fire is destined to cleanse and purify the souls”, adds the Holy Doctor, “[b]still it is more acute than anything we can possibly endure on Earth.”[/b]

St. Cyril of Alexandria does not hesitate to say: [b]“that it would be preferable to suffer all the possible formats of Earth until Judgment day, than pass one day in Purgatory.”
[/b]
Another great Saint says:

[b]“Our fire, in comparison with the fire of Purgatory is a refreshing breeze.”
[/b]
The other Holy Writers speak in identical terms of this awful fire.[/quote]

[url="http://pwhs-mfi.org/read_me/what_purgatory.htm"]http://pwhs-mfi.org/read_me/what_purgatory.htm[/url]

No thanks, I know God and I know He is not sending me as His adopted Child to that terrible place, He will never forsake or leave me.

[img]http://www.freewebs.com/acatholiclife/purgatory.jpg[/img]

the queen of heaven watches them burn...

{sick}

Edited June 28, 2007 by Budge

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Budge' post='1304431' date='Jun 28 2007, 03:10 PM']Oh come on what are you trying to pass off on me now?

ONE OF YOUR SAINTS: ST CATHERINE GENOA:

[url="http://www.theworkofgod.org/saints/Lives/CatGenoa.htm"]SAINT SAYS DIFFERENT[/url]
Fire and burning. NOW WHAT KIND OF LOVING GOD AFTER A HUMAN BEING SUFFERS A HORRIBLE DEATH, SENDS HIS CHILD TO A PLACE LIKE THIS? None of us humans would even send our pet dog to this place nonetheless a child. Hell is different. You folks are trying to teach that God sends his children to be BURNED.
[url="http://pwhs-mfi.org/read_me/what_purgatory.htm"]http://pwhs-mfi.org/read_me/what_purgatory.htm[/url]

No thanks, I know God and I know He is not sending me as His adopted Child to that terrible place, He will never forsake or leave me.

[img]http://www.freewebs.com/acatholiclife/purgatory.jpg[/img]

the queen of heaven watches them burn...

{sick}[/quote]

You don't understand what we believe. At least try to see where we are coming from? beause we can see your logic even if we believe it faulty.

Of course we don't believe God is unmerciful and hating. We always talk about love on this phorum so why wouldnt we believe there was a reason for purgatory? the bible says "nothing unclean shall enter heaven". is any one of us sinless? we need purification, and if we aren't sinless at death we cannot enter heaven. that is exactly why our God out of MERCY sends us to purgatory instead of hell. in purgatory you are seperate from God, this is true. the only difference between purgatory and hell is hope. HOPE is one of the theological virtues. in purgatory you have hope because you are destined from heaven and that makes it completely worthwhile.

We don't believe in a hateful God and don't accuse us of such. We believe that it is just because of God's mercy that he sends us to purgatory. His ways are so beyond our ways how can you pretend to say "God's mind works just like mine"? God doesn't enjoy sending us to purgatory anymore than we would enjoy being there. Neither does God enjoy suffering on earth, but he allows that, doesnt he? God does not prevent pain if that pain is for your greater good. for most people if they do not suffer in purgatory they will burn in hell. that is why they suffer in purgatory instead. because God loves us and is merciful.

[Budge]

I know a few Catholics who reject Purgatory, all have told me that no loving God would have Purgaotry and tell me they do not believe in it, that it was a man-made thing for the Medieval church to make money and its not in the Bible. I respect those folks for thinking things through. So why not follow their lead and THINK it through?Dont Take my word for it, and ask yourserlf if Christ's sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for sin, what need for PURGATORY and God sending to you such a horrible place none of us would send our dog to suffer in.

One is supposed to be purified through Jesus Christ and your sins purged via HIM

Why dont you folks believe that?

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,[b] when he had by himself purged our sins[/b], sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


ll[quote]. in purgatory you are seperate from God, this is true[/quote].

So what about the promise of Hebrews 13:5
[quote]the only difference between purgatory and hell is hope. HOPE is one of the theological virtues. in purgatory you have hope because you are destined from heaven and that makes it completely worthwhile.[/quote]

I believe that the devil is the father of lies, and one diabolical lie beyond even human belief would be allowing people in hell to think one day they would "get out"

Purgatory is NOT in the BIble, it is a man-made invention.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Budge

[aalpha1989]

"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church..." -Gal. 1:24

We do need to make right what we have done wrong. Our sins are forgivable because of Christ's death. They are not automatically forgiven. Even Christ speaks of the "sin against hte Holy Spirit" which is unforgivable, and also he gives his apostles power to forgive sin. "what you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven....". obviously then our sins are not forgiven simply because Christ died. again, they CAN be forgiven because he died, and the gates of heaven have been opened because of his resurrection, but his death in itself does not forgive our sins.

of course we believe that we are forgiven by Jesus. purgatory purifies in us what was made wrong by us. God grants us that grace. he allows us to be perfected by his love before we spend eternity with him. why would you want to spend eternity imperfect? Christ commands "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect".

Catholics who reject purgatory are not in line with Catholic teaching and cannot be looked to as a source of what catholics can/cannot believe. they should only be corrected, not applauded.

[prose]

Proverbs 17
3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

2 Ecclesiasticus 7
37 A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.

3 Malachi 3
2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? And who shall stand to see him? For he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: 3 And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.

4 Malachi 7
8 Rejoice not, thou, my enemy, over me, because I am fallen: I shall arise, when I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light. 9 I will bear the wrath of the Lord, because I have sinned against him; until he judge my cause and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth into the light, I shall behold his justice.

5 Zacharias 9
11Thou also by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water.

6 2 Machabees 12
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

7 Matthew 5
25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

8 Matthew 12
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

9 Matthew 18
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

10 Luke 12
47 And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

11 1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

12 1 Corinthians 15
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

13 Philippians 2
10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

14 1 Peter 3
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

15 Revelation 21
27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

1 John 3:2-3
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Edited June 28, 2007 by prose

[saint_wannabe]

purgatory isn't hell its basically a waiting place, where someone is purified. only people who are really pure and holy can enter heaven but some of us tho we may believe in God still sin. right?


i wanna say something else about confession and purgatory but im afraid it might start a riot.