Praying For Purgatory?

[MichaelF]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp[/url]

The fact that this was handed down to us, by the Church Fathers, across 2000 years, speaks for itself.

Edited June 28, 2007 by MichaelF

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='MichaelF' post='1304728' date='Jun 28 2007, 07:46 PM'][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp[/url]

The fact that this was handed down to us, by the Church Fathers, across 2000 years, speaks for itself.[/quote]


budge doesnt trust old people....



teasing.....

[Budge]

The apostles warned of early deceivers....

so their claim to fame based on antiquity doesnt cut it.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='Budge' post='1305368' date='Jun 29 2007, 08:45 AM']The apostles warned of early deceivers....

so their claim to fame based on antiquity doesnt cut it.[/quote]


But Budge,

This was the faith of the entire Church, and these are the very people that handed us the canon of Scripture, the fully developed doctrine of the Trinity, and that of the Hypostatic Union. These were bishops who were fighting [i]against[/i] heresy.

If all these men were deceivers, where was the real Church? Perhaps hidden up somewhere in Siberia? Perhaps on top of Mt. Everest?

Tell me, Budge, on what grounds do you accept the canon of Scripture from these men as infallible, and then all of a sudden say they are "deceivers"?

I need a firm basis, Budge. I have heard Protestants like you dodge this question by appealing everything from the "Whore of Babylon" nightmare to the "tingly feeling in their belly" when they read the Bible. I need an answer: apart form the Catholic Church, on what basis do you say the New Testament Canon is infallible? Please answer the question directly. Please do not dodge the issue here. I need Protestant grounds for an INFALLIBLE canon, and remember, we have to be able to KNOW it is infallible.

I look forward to your response.

God bless,

Philip

[prose]

Why do you always ignore my posts Budge? I just gave you almost a full page of JUST Bible quote supporting purgatory....

Can you explain all of them away?

If we are going to just use the Bible as reference, please open yours and find me all the verses that speak against all of these:

[quote]Proverbs 17
3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

2 Ecclesiasticus 7
37 A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.

3 Malachi 3
2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? And who shall stand to see him? For he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: 3 And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.

4 Malachi 7
8 Rejoice not, thou, my enemy, over me, because I am fallen: I shall arise, when I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light. 9 I will bear the wrath of the Lord, because I have sinned against him; until he judge my cause and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth into the light, I shall behold his justice.

5 Zacharias 9
11Thou also by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water.

6 2 Machabees 12
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

7 Matthew 5
25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

8 Matthew 12
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

9 Matthew 18
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

10 Luke 12
47 And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

11 1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

12 1 Corinthians 15
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

13 Philippians 2
10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

14 1 Peter 3
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

15 Revelation 21
27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

1 John 3:2-3
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.[/quote]

[RoseT91]

My comfrimation class teachers explained this really well.
We should all strive for Heaven, most of us will miss our target and land in Purgatory.
But if we strive for Purgatory what happens if we dont make it there then we cant go up so then we just go down to Hell.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='prose' post='1305737' date='Jun 29 2007, 01:40 PM']Why do you always ignore my posts Budge? I just gave you almost a full page of JUST Bible quote supporting purgatory....

Can you explain all of them away?

If we are going to just use the Bible as reference, please open yours and find me all the verses that speak against all of these:[/quote]

Prose,

Hello, I have been lurking and I do know Budge from other forums. You did provide scripture that speaks of another place that is inbetween a place of PURIFYING. In HEll there is no NEED of PURIFYING. I too am waiting for Budge to explain these verses.....

Proverbs 17
3 As silver is tried by fire, and gold in the furnace: so the Lord trieth the hearts.

2 Ecclesiasticus 7
37 A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.

3 Malachi 3
2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? And who shall stand to see him? For he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller's herb: 3 And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.

4 Malachi 7
8 Rejoice not, thou, my enemy, over me, because I am fallen: I shall arise, when I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light. 9 I will bear the wrath of the Lord, because I have sinned against him; until he judge my cause and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth into the light, I shall behold his justice.

5 Zacharias 9
11Thou also by the blood of thy testament hast sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit, wherein is no water.

6 2 Machabees 12
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

7 Matthew 5
25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

8 Matthew 12
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

9 Matthew 18
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

10 Luke 12
47 And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

11 1 Corinthians 3
15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

12 1 Corinthians 15
29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

13 Philippians 2
10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

14 1 Peter 3
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

15 Revelation 21
27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

1 John 3:2-3
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.


Here is another..

Matthew 12
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,[b] it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.[/b]

There is no room for forgiveness in Hell. Without purgatory, why would we need to be forgiven in the world to come.....

A ha, there is another place.....!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited July 2, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Guest Sola Roma]

prose,

excellent post. excellent. i have been lurking for a while too like kyrie (in fact i have read posts here at phat mass for years but just never got an account, just got free wallpaper and read posts) but i have to say that you have made an excellent stand for the church here on purgatory. there isn't a way for budge to refute these unless it's with a single scripture that is vague and then followed by his opinion of how it covers the issue. that's the usual protestant form. i know cause i used to be one.

anyway, just givin you props. i don't know that budge will be able to reply. nor will there be a reply on an infallible source for scripture outside the church. won't happen. and we all know it. protestants don't realize what they are doing by trying to refute the church with the very book she gave them. they take the scriptures to be infallible by proxy, and them slap the church in the face with it declaring her wrong.

how crazy.

props.

[heshmafluff]

[quote]there isn't a way for budge to refute these unless it's with a single scripture that is vague and then followed by his opinion of how it covers the issue. that's the usual protestant form. i know cause i used to be one.[/quote]

Funny...that's how most protestants that I know describe Catholic responses...

I would just like to point out the Metaphor factor. Like and As appear a lot in there...in fact, every one of them that mentions fire or flame in any way does so using like or as. In the English language, that means that every one of them is in fact an example. So either the bible needs to be rewritten, or those are more or less irrelevant to this thread.

As for number 13, Philippians 2, when you read it you find Heaven mentioned, and Hell mentioned, and Earth mentioned, but nothing else at all. No purgatory there.

As for the infallible...not so sure. Working on finding out though and will get back to you on it. Thats my two cents...if anyone actually studies this stuff who can go into detail, instead of finding it on the fly late at night, I'm interested to hear both sides.

[Guest]

Ok.....first off, im not saying i dont believe in purgatory....actually the idea is quite comforting to me because my best friends brother died in a car accident and he had fallen deeply away from the faith....although he was baptised as a catholic......so purgatory is comforting for me because it means that he would not be sent to hell and would be able to go to a place that would purge him of his sin before entering into heaven....so on that note i am hopefull of purgatory and can see its purpouse totally.......

Now on the other note though......if purgatory does exist and it its a place of great torment similar to hell but with HOPE which hell does not offer.....why would it be necessary for Jesus Christ to come to earth and be beaten and die a horrific death and die on a cross ?? If God had set a place aside like hell where christians could go to purge out their sins, then why would Jesus have to also pay for all our sins on the cross and die the violent death he did ?? That doesnt make sence to me.......Even in the old testement God had sons and daughters that he loved very much who he loved and protected.....He would never send these people to hell......So if a place like this existed why not send the sons and daughters of the old testment to purgatory to be purged and cleansed of their sins ?? Therefore not makeing it necessary for his perfect and sinless son to be beaten and hung on a cross..... And i remember one story in the old testement where God raised up one indivigual before he even died because he was so pleased with him and loved him so much........So in essence this man was approved by God and no sacrifice for his sin was necessary......... (this is what i took from the story, i could be way off ) i ussually am lol

So again......I know God is all loveing and all pure.....so it would make no sence to me why he would then send his son to die the death that he did if when we died we could go to purgatory and pay for the sins ourself till they were purged out and we were made totally pure...... I thought the whole point of Christ suffering and dieing on the cross the way he did was so that he would pay for sins so we could stand before God and not be seen for the sins we committed...but be seen pure and blameless in Christ ???? It troubles me because even before Jesus went to the cross he said that if there was anyway God could stop him from going to the cross that he was all for it....But him being the very deffinition of LOVE he said let my will not be done but the Fathers will in Heaven.....God bless his soul that we know him..............

It just seems to me that purgatory makes the cross look like that it was something that didnt necessarily have to be done ??? because if when we die we can go to a place of torment and suffering to pay for our sin, then why would it be necessary for God's son to suffer the way he did ??? I mean I really wish Jesus didnt have to die the way he did....I wish we could all go to purgatory and pay for our sins without Christ ever haveing to shed his innocent blood for humans sins.......its awful....its the only part of christianity that really makes me wonder sometimes....and in no way am i doubting what he had to do or am I questioning the Good GOD Above.....Ive done that in the past and im done....I really want Gods friendship and peace of mind....which he gives me.....and I know that i deserve purgatory and will probally end up there when i die..........BUT AGAIN, JESUS CHRIST was king of all before he came here and would have been even if didnt come ( is this correct ???) so again.......if Christ dieing on the cross to make us acceptable and blameless before God was the whole point of it, why must one suffer torment similar to hell in purgatory ???

It just makes it seem as if Jesus suffered pain the he shouldnt have had to suffer.........I mean, if this place exist....why not Jesus Christ come here and do the same things he did and be ressurected but without dieing on the cross the way he did ??? Again this is not attempted in no way to question God or His son whom I love both dearly....its just honest thoughts from my heart.........peace and Godbless

Edited July 26, 2007 by Guest

[Paddington]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1305414' date='Jun 29 2007, 01:38 PM']I need Protestant grounds for an INFALLIBLE canon, and remember, we have to be able to KNOW it is infallible.[/quote]

Lord Philip, I wrote this not necessarily to you. Just used your question as a launch-pad. After I wrote my comments, I noticed that you posted a full month ago. Sorry?

I'll say a little on part 1, the Protestant grounds for an infallible canon. Part 2 is asking too much as faith is involved just as in Catholicism.

A Protestant needs 2 things to build the shape of their argument to trust Scripture without submitting to the Pope:
1. Belief that the Incarnation sounds transcendentally correct enough to be seen as a lesson from the Spirit.
2. Belief that the 4 Gospels (and to a lesser extent Acts) are historically reliable. And that they are a framework that matches the key ideas in the rest of Scripture forming "an organic whole."

Catholics agree with those 2 things.

In the 4 Gospels, Christ believes in the OT. So a Protestant does too.
In the 4 Gospels, Christ teaches and commissions the Apostles who write the rest of the NT. Those close with the Apostles write a few of the books. So a Protestant accepts them.

Confronted with the claims of Catholicism, a Protestant has to sincerely doubt just one doctrine to fall back on (or be forced to) a Protestant basis (or to consider Eastern Orthodoxy.)

Can a Protestant believe that there are practical problems with their basis? Yes, even if many won't admit that.

I'm not asserting a thing about dogma, just giving some food for thought. I've been trying to stay out of these discussions for my own reasons. If there is one thing that I would like to say (without accusing ANYBODY IN PARTICULAR. Not Lord Philip. Not anybody.).....it is that when I listen to many Catholic apologetics statements, I wonder if in-between the words, the Catholic really is saying, "how dare THEY believe in Jesus!" I don't think that would be Catholic to say that as Protestantism, generally speaking, is actually "better than nothing" according to the Church. I could be wrong for the suspicion and we all know Protestants can say some crazy stuff. Perhaps they sometimes mean to say, "how dare THEY believe in Jesus!" It's all unfortunate.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1341208' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:58 AM']In the 4 Gospels, Christ believes in the OT. So a Protestant does too.[/quote]
That's inadequate. Why do protestants reject the deuterocanon, when evidence suggests Matthew quotes from the Septuigint, including one or more books that aren't in the protestant bibles?

[quote name='Paddington' post='1341208' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:58 AM']In the 4 Gospels, Christ teaches and commissions the Apostles who write the rest of the NT. Those close with the Apostles write a few of the books. So a Protestant accepts them.[/quote]
Second, why are other writings of the apostles not a part of scripture, then? Why is 3 Corinthians not in the bible? Why not Paul's epistle to the Lacedonians? Why not the Letter of Peter to Philip? Why not the Epistle of Barnabas?

The bottom line is that an infallible authority must be responsible for assembling the canon of scripture in order for that canon to be infallible.

[Paddington]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1341424' date='Jul 26 2007, 03:46 PM']That's inadequate. Why do protestants reject the deuterocanon, when evidence suggests Matthew quotes from the Septuigint, including one or more books that aren't in the protestant bibles?
Second, why are other writings of the apostles not a part of scripture, then? Why is 3 Corinthians not in the bible? Why not Paul's epistle to the Lacedonians? Why not the Letter of Peter to Philip? Why not the Epistle of Barnabas?

The bottom line is that an infallible authority must be responsible for assembling the canon of scripture in order for that canon to be infallible.[/quote]

The bottom line to me is that I don't think you guys are perfect either.

[reyb]

[quote name='MichaelF' post='1304728' date='Jun 28 2007, 07:46 PM'][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp[/url]

The fact that this was handed down to us, by the Church Fathers, across 2000 years, speaks for itself.[/quote]
[indent]This is root of the problem. You have a church father who go beyond the scripture. [/indent]
[indent]I have a question: Suppose there is really a purgatory (a place of - whatever place it is according to your definition of purgatory). Again, let us assume there is really a purgatory, What is the sense of 'assurance of Salvation'? [/indent]

Edited August 2, 2007 by reyb

[Budge]

[quote]It just seems to me that purgatory makes the cross look like that it was something that didnt necessarily have to be done ???[/quote]

and youre correct.

Either the blood of Christ is fully cleansing or it is not and needs a backup from Purgatory.
[quote]5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and [b]washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[/b][/quote]

Question I ask Catholics all the time...

Why dont you believe the Blood of Christ is sufficient to wash your sins away?

[Paddington]

Budge, purgatory isn't to cleanse from damning sins. St. Paul was told he must suffer too at his conversion. Suffering before glory for the believer is a strong theme in the NT. It doesn't mean Christ's sacrifice didn't work. It makes more sense to say that the suffering is [i]from[/i] Christ's sacrifice.

[Paddington]

Budge, have you considered this?


Protestants almost never believe in purgatory, but generally believe in a "traumatizing" experience before the judgement seat of Christ that is required before entering glory.

Catholics believe in purgatory that is a "traumatizing" experience coming from the judgement seat of Christ that is (almost always) required before entering glory. They also pretty much fall short of knowing what is involved in purgatory.

The overlap is striking to me.

[XIX]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347118' date='Aug 2 2007, 09:20 AM']and youre correct.

Either the blood of Christ is fully cleansing or it is not and needs a backup from Purgatory.
Question I ask Catholics all the time...

Why dont you believe the Blood of Christ is sufficient to wash your sins away?[/quote]
Why do you assume what you are trying to prove?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347118' date='Aug 2 2007, 10:20 AM']and youre correct.

Either the blood of Christ is fully cleansing or it is not and needs a backup from Purgatory.
Question I ask Catholics all the time...

Why dont you believe the Blood of Christ is sufficient to wash your sins away?[/quote]

Catholics realize (and always have) that Christ paid all that off in one fell swoop almost two thousand years ago. No more payment of the [i]eternal[/i] debt of our sins is needed. In fact, no more payment of the [i]eternal[/i] debt of our sins is possible.

Christ's merits on the cross were superabundant, that is, more than enough to cover the debt of our sins. Catholics realize this, and always have. St. Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic and one of the greatest thinkers in history said, “By suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offense of the whole human race. First of all, because of the exceeding charity from which He suffered; secondly, on account of the dignity of His life which He laid down in atonement, for it was the life of one who was God and man; thirdly, on account of the extent of the Passion, and the greatness of the grief endured, as stated above. And therefore Christ's Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 Jn. 2:2: 'He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world'" (Summa Theologiae 3:48:2). This teaching has been and to this day still is a common teaching of Catholics.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church even says: “The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the ‘New Adam’ who, because he ‘became obedient unto death, even death on a cross,’ makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam” (CCC 411).

The Blood of Christ is sufficient to wash our sins away. He redeemed us. He has saved us from eternal punishment. If we are in a state of grace then there is no hell for us. There is still temporal punishment though. One must be perfect to enter Heaven. Not all are perfect upon dying (most are not). So, there must be a waiting place where one can be purified and made perfect so as to enter heaven.

Budge, purgatory is so eaisly defended with Scripture. There are so many verses to defend it, and many of them have already been given. You usually demand that someone refute the one or two verses that you always give against the Church. I think it is only proper in a "debate" thread that you actually read and try to refute the other side. If you can't... that says something. Why don't you read the verses given so far and tell the good people that took their time to post them for you what you think of each verse. Right now your ignoring them, and it is a bit rude and does nothing for your position in the debate.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[reyb]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1347140' date='Aug 2 2007, 10:48 AM']Budge, purgatory isn't to cleanse from damning sins. [b][color="#0000FF"]St. Paul was told he must suffer too at his conversion[/color][/b]. Suffering before glory for the believer is a strong theme in the NT. It doesn't mean Christ's sacrifice didn't work. [b][color="#0000FF"]It makes more sense to say that the suffering is [i]from[/i] Christ's sacrifice[/color].[/b][/quote]

[indent]It is written in Acts 9:15-16

15[color="#FF0000"] But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16[b] I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."[/b] [/color]NIV[/indent]


[indent]This 'suffering' (in the above verse) is what you called 'suffering in purgatory'?[/indent]