Monotheism/beatific Vision

["Kyrie eleison"]

I have been on forums where non-catholics believe that Muslims worship a different God than the One which Christians worship and will be damned.

The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that Muslims do worship the same God as do the Christians.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), paragraph 841:

"The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

We believe that God can and does communicate with people outside of Catholicism, and we cannot assume that only Catholics will make it to Heaven, as Jesus states,'there are many mansions in my house."

I would like to know your input on the[b] beatific vision[/b]. Is this reserved for those who remained faithful to the word of god and his church.

Edited July 2, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Apotheoun]

The statements about Islam made by the Bishops at the Second Vatican Council (and quoted in the Catechism) are not definitive, which means that a Catholic is not required to assent to them. The God of Islam is not the true God, because Islam openly and explicitly denies the Trinity. Moreover, true worship can only be offered to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1309544' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:38 PM']The statements about Islam made by the Bishops at the Second Vatican Council (and quoted in the Catechism) are not definitive, which means that a Catholic is not required to assent to them. The God of Islam is not the true God, because Islam openly and explicitly denies the Trinity. Moreover, true worship can only be offered to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]
Yes, and even is these statement were definitive they are pretty stinkin ambiguous.

[Apotheoun]

The Magisterium does not have the power to make a definitive statement in connection with Islam, because the Church's infallibility is limited to those things that are divinely revealed, or which are intimately connected to divine revelation, and Islam does not fit into either category.

That said, Islam is a false religion, and Mohammad is not a prophet.

[mortify]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1309539' date='Jul 2 2007, 02:33 PM']We believe that God can and does communicate with people outside of Catholicism, and we cannot assume that only Catholics will make it to Heaven, as Jesus states,'there are many mansions in my house."[/quote]

Can you explain these points further?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='mortify' post='1309585' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:16 PM']Can you explain these points further?[/quote]

Mority,

It goes along the lines of invincible ignorance. God does give graces to those who in the best of their knowledge but not of their own fault DO NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL of CHRIST but try to live according to the good of their conscience and or belief's.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1309571' date='Jul 2 2007, 04:10 PM']The Magisterium does not have the power to make a definitive statement in connection with Islam, because the Church's infallibility is limited to those things that are divinely revealed, or which are intimately connected to divine revelation, and Islam does not fit into either category.

That said, Islam is a false religion, and Mohammad is not a prophet.[/quote]

I understand that Mohammed is not a prophet and as Catholics we do not acknowledge him as one, but I do acknowledge that Muslims worship the ALL-POWERFUL GOD. The supreme and unique God, who created and rules everything. The god of Abraham.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1310000' date='Jul 2 2007, 09:25 PM']I understand that Mohammed is not a prophet and as Catholics we do not acknowledge him as one, but I do acknowledge that Muslims worship the ALL-POWERFUL GOD. The supreme and unique God, who created and rules everything. The god of Abraham.[/quote]
They might worship God, but its not the God of Abraham.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1310149' date='Jul 2 2007, 09:46 PM']They might worship God, but its not the God of Abraham.[/quote]

There are Muslims that may be so anti-Christian that they would never BELIEVE that they are worshipping God-- Allah--if it turned out that he was the God of the Christians.

The majority of Muslims are not this way. They may not believe that God is a Trinity or that he incarnated in Jesus of Nazareth, but they are still directing their prayers to the "Creator of the Universe" or "God who appared to Abraham" or "the one true God."

It is what enables the Catechism to state that Muslims "acknowledge the Creator" and that "together with us they adore the one, merciful God" (CCC 841).

There are those who know both Jesus and God (like Muslims), but they do not know and or believe that they are both the same being. They believe in Jesus (as a prophet), they believe in God (as Creator).

Muslims do at least accept Jesus as a prophet and Muslims do revere Mary, as well, in their own way.

Edited July 3, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[cmotherofpirl]

" "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
"

[b]Profess [/b] is the key word. They think they are worshipping the same God, but the attributes of their God are different enough, that when they use the term GOd , they are described something different.

[gamesfanatic04]

Yes but they deny His resurrection, they may worship the same God but the fact of the matter is that they are diametrically opposed to the values held by Catholics and Jews alike. Islam is a violent religion based on killing and taking things from other people. And I know I know supposedly this is not the real Muslim faith but I also know this, in countries were Muslims are the majority, where the main holy sites are located and the imams preach on the streets the violent cut your head off infidel Islam is the Islam that is practiced. Saying that that's not really the real Islam is like saying the Catholicism practiced in the Vatican isn't real Catholicism. They may worship the same God but it is in the same vein of a serial killer that murders abortion doctors and abortion protesters are both fighting abortion. Same goal, radically different procedures.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1310322' date='Jul 2 2007, 11:18 PM']" "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
"

[b]Profess [/b] is the key word. They think they are worshipping the same God, but the attributes of their God are different enough, that when they use the term GOd , they are described something different.[/quote]

What I am trying to relay is the rejection of some distorted image of Christ would not necessarily mean that one had truly rejected Christ himself, or it would at least reduce the culpability for such an act.


This is what the GREAT POPE JOHN PAUL has stated:


Yes, certainly it is a different case when we come to these great monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3).

As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us.

[KnightofChrist]

Islam itself outright teaches that those who believe in the Trinity and in Christ as God, are "unbelievers." Which means they are stating we who believe in Our Lord do not believe in their god.


Christ is God, fully, truly and nothing less. Islam rejects Christ as GOD, they therefor reject God. It is not possible to both believe in and reject the One True God.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1309544' date='Jul 2 2007, 03:38 PM']The statements about Islam made by the Bishops at the Second Vatican Council (and quoted in the Catechism) are not definitive, which means that a Catholic is not required to assent to them. The God of Islam is not the true God, because Islam openly and explicitly denies the Trinity. Moreover, true worship can only be offered to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

[url="http://www.wf-f.org/06-3VaticanII.html"]http://www.wf-f.org/06-3VaticanII.html[/url]

[b][/b]

Some people were perhaps surprised when one of the first things Pope Benedict XVI spoke about immediately following his election to the chair of Peter was the need -- and his intention -- to carry on with the implementation of Vatican Council II. In his initial message to the cardinals the day after his election, the new pope called for what he described as “an authoritative re-reading of the Second Vatican Council”, and he then went on to state that:

… as I prepare myself for the service that is proper to the Successor of Peter, I also wish to confirm my determination to continue to put the Second Vatican Council into practice, following in the footsteps of my Predecessors and in faithful continuity with the 2,000-year tradition of the Church. This very year [2005] marks the 40th anniversary of the conclusion of the Council (8 December 1965). As the years have passed, the Conciliar Documents have lost none of their timeliness; indeed, their teachings are proving particularly relevant to the new situation of the Church and the current globalized society. (Initial Message of Pope Benedict XVI to the Cardinals, April 20, 2005)

Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, approved on November 24, 1964

Most people are aware that the Catholic Church at Vatican II significantly changed her approach to those Christians outside her visible boundaries from a position that called for waiting passively for the “return” to the true Church of the lost sheep to a more active policy whereby the Church, like the good shepherd in the parable, would henceforth go out in search of those lost sheep. (cf. Mt 18:12) In effecting this change of approach, the Council Fathers picked up on their own teaching in Lumen Gentium that non-Catholic Christians usually possessed at least some “elements of sanctification and truth” -- in other words, that their Christian glass was not just half empty; it was half full.

Building on this basic idea, the Council Fathers issued their Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio (“Restoration of Unity”), which developed a set of ecumenical principles whereby Catholics might henceforth participate in ecumenical dialogue and, under certain circumstances, in joint prayer or worship, with non-Catholic Christians, aimed at helping to clear away the obstacles to Christian reunion. The principles developed by the Council included: avoiding blame or harsh judgments against separated brethren; engaging in honest and sincere dialogue with them in order to see what agreements might possibly be reached; engaging in common charitable works; and praying together when possible.

As a result of the adoption of these principles, the Catholic Church, in the last forty years, has pretty much taken over the leadership of the worldwide ecumenical movement, as you can readily verify by consulting the section of the latest Catholic Almanac entitled “Ecumenism and Interreligious Dialogue”, where a running record is kept of all the interfaith dialogues, joint ecumenical declarations, and the like that have taken place since Vatican II. Christian unity may not have been achieved as yet -- although the Catholic Church may be close to reunion with some of the Ancient Churches of the East that have been in schism for some sixteen hundred years -- but it is remarkable what agreements have been reached between previously warring Churches.

At the same time as Vatican II launched the Church into today’s organized ecumenical activity, it is of interest -- as it is somewhat ironic -- that Unitatis Redintegratio is the Vatican II document in which it is stated most clearly that the Catholic Church has not relinquished her claim to be the one, true Church of Christ. The document states in this regard:

… For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help towards salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. (UR 3)
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Jesus did pray that we all may be one, of course never compromising our belief's but in reaching out in dialouge.


John 17
9
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours,
10
and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.
11
And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me,[b] so that they may be one just as we are.[/b]

Edited July 3, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1310638' date='Jul 3 2007, 02:31 AM']What I am trying to relay is the rejection of some distorted image of Christ would not necessarily mean that one had truly rejected Christ himself, or it would at least reduce the culpability for such an act.
This is what the GREAT POPE JOHN PAUL has stated:
Yes, certainly it is a different case when we come to these great monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3).

As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us.[/quote]

I am not talking about their distorted image of Jesus Christ, but their distorted image of God ALmighty. Saying you worship one God is meaningless unless the God you are thinking about has the same characteristics of the God I am thinking about.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1310638' date='Jul 3 2007, 02:31 AM']What I am trying to relay is the rejection of some distorted image of Christ would not necessarily mean that one had truly rejected Christ himself, or it would at least reduce the culpability for such an act.
This is what the GREAT POPE JOHN PAUL has stated:
Yes, certainly it is a different case when we come to these great monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3).

As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us.[/quote]

I am not talking about their distorted image of Jesus Christ, but their distorted image of God ALmighty. Saying you worship one God is meaningless unless the God you are thinking about has the same characteristics of the God I am thinking about.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1310863' date='Jul 3 2007, 10:50 AM']I am not talking about their distorted image of Jesus Christ, but their distorted image of God ALmighty. Saying you worship one God is meaningless unless the God you are thinking about has the same characteristics of the God I am thinking about.[/quote]

This is my take.

If we take what they do believe about ALLAH the ALMIGHTY GOD, ALL POWERFUL, who CREATED THE HEAVENS and EARTH and who WILL JUDGE all at the END of THEIR LIFE, this points to THE ONE GOD. Our God.

This is a step in bringing them closer to the FULLNESS of the GOSPEL of CHRIST.

What is your take on this scripture verse?

John 14:2

NASB: "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (NASB ©1995)

[Justified Saint]

I guess I'll go out on a limb and agree with the Catholic Church on this one. The Jews explicity reject Christ and the Trinity as well, but they do not worship a false God.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1310932' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:55 AM']I guess I'll go out on a limb and agree with the Catholic Church on this one. The Jews explicity reject Christ and the Trinity as well, but they do not worship a false God.[/quote]

JS,

What moved me about John Paul the great is how he reached out to all faiths to foster communication, to mend hostility.

How are we to become ONE BODY if we don't reach out. Take a step.....

We are [b]CALLED[/b] to be ONE BODY.

Edited July 3, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Apotheoun]

Kyrie,

The Pope can say all manner of wondrous things about Islam, but as a Catholic I do not have to agree with his comments because the Islamic religion does not fall within the bounds of the authority of the Church's Magisterium to proclaim a definitive position. In other words, the Pope is expressing his private opinion, and nothing more.

I have studied Islam, and I have come to the conclusion both historically and theologically that it is a false religion, and nothing the Pope has said has altered my views on this issue.

The Islamic religion is founded upon the open denial of the tri-hypostatic God, and -- as a consequence -- I cannot accept the idea that they believe in and worship the true God. The Son of God through His incarnation, ministry, passion, death, resurrection, and ascension made the only true act of worship, and human beings can worship God the Father only through the Son, in the power of the Spirit. There is no abstract natural worship of God.

Finally, believing in monotheism is not identical with believing in God. God is not a mental abstraction, nor can created beings offer true worship to Him on their own initiative, and to say otherwise is contrary to the Apostolic tradition of the Church. True worship is offered to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit, and Islam is founded upon an explicit denial of this very truth. That said, theological indifferentism is a heresy, and I refuse to embrace it. As St. John the Apostle, writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit, declared:

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. . . . He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to His Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life." (1 John 2:23 and 3:10-12)

Thus, I refuse to make God a liar by saying that Muslim "worship" is true and good, since the whole Islamic religion is founded upon an open and explicit denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and a complete rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity.

God bless,
Todd