Monotheism/beatific Vision

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1310932' date='Jul 3 2007, 09:55 AM']I guess I'll go out on a limb and agree with the Catholic Church on this one. The Jews explicity reject Christ and the Trinity as well, but they do not worship a false God.[/quote]
True woship is offered only in, with, and through the Church, i.e., through the Son, who alone offered a perfect sacrifice to the Father, in the power of the Spirit.

The Old Testament shadows, which pointed forward to Christ, have been fulfilled in Christ, which means that they no longer have any value (cf. the paschal homilies of Pope St. Leo). Thus, Christ is the sole savior of humanity, for -- as scripture declares -- there is no other name given under heaven by which a man can be saved.

[Apotheoun]

Let us be clear about this: Islam is a false religion, and Mohammad is not a prophet of God, and -- as a consequence -- if a Muslim is saved it is not because he followed the tenets of that false religion, but in spite of his having been influenced by Mohammadanism.

Salvation is by the grace of God alone, which is found only in Christ Jesus, the sole redeemer of mankind.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311038' date='Jul 3 2007, 12:58 PM']Kyrie,

The Pope can say all manner of wondrous things about Islam, but as a Catholic I do not have to agree with his comments because the Islamic religion does not fall within the bounds of the authority of the Church's Magisterium to proclaim a definitive position. In other words, the Pope is expressing his private opinion, and nothing more.

I have studied Islam, and I have come to the conclusion both historically and theologically that it is a false religion, and nothing the Pope has said has altered my views on this issue.

The Islamic religion is founded upon the open denial of the tri-hypostatic God, and -- as a consequence -- I cannot accept the idea that they believe in and worship the true God. The Son of God through his incarnation, ministry, passion, death, resurrection, and ascension made the only true act of worship, and human beings can worship God the Father only through the Son, in the power of the Spirit. There is no abstract natural worship of God.

Finally, believing in monotheism is not identical with believing in God. God is not a mental abstraction, nor can created beings offer true worship to God on their own initiative, and to say otherwise is contrary to the Apostolic tradition of the Church. True worship is offered to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit, and Islam is founded upon a denial of this very truth. Theological indifferentism is a heresy, and I refuse to embrace it. As St. John the Apostle, writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit, said:

"No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. . . . He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life." (1 John 2:23 and 3:10-12)

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

You leave no room for dialouge between differing faiths. No window for opportunity. As a Catholic I do take what the Vicar of Christ has declared about reaching out to other faiths, christ like. By your stance will there [b]only[/b] be room for Catholics and or those who believe in the trinity in heaven?

Where does invincible ignorance fall into place?

I was curious what is your take on John 14:2 ‘In My Father’s house are many mansions:
if It were not so, I would have told you.’

[Apotheoun]

Christ did not say, "Go therefore and dialogue with other religions, endorsing indifferentism and political correctness for the sake of a false peace"; instead, the Lord said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Thus, dialogue cannot replace the great commission given by Christ to the Church. In fact, the Magisterium has no authority whatsoever to say anything at all about the Islamic religion, and especially in connection with the worship of the true God; instead, the dialogue carried on by the Magisterium with Islam is limited to simply trying to help people of different beliefs to get along in a civil manner in a pluralist society.

That said, there can be no theological dialogue between Christianity and Islam, because Islam is founded upon an explicit denial of the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. In connection with this issue it is important to remember that theological indifferentism is a heresy, which was long ago condemned by the Church.

One other thing must be said, because the attempts at dialogue made by the Catholic Church with Islam, which end in watering down the doctrine of the faith, are harmful to the life of the Church herself, but are also harmful to the ecumenical dialogue that must be done with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who truly share with the Roman Church a common belief in the divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311084' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:18 AM']Where does invincible ignorance fall into place?

I was curious what is your take on John 14:2 ‘In My Father’s house are many mansions:
if It were not so, I would have told you.’[/quote]
Invincible ignorance does not fall into place anywhere in this discussion, because no human being can tell who is or is not invincibly ignorant. Moreover, it worries me when a Catholic pushes forward the idea of invincible ignorance as if it is the panacea for all problems. It is the duty of Christians to evangelize, not to assume that everyone is invincibly ignorant and thus [i]somehow[/i] saved. Ignorance, invincible or otherwise, is not salvific.

Now, as far as the "many mansions" comment is concerned, it has nothing to do with this topic either, but I will say this much about it, it is wrong to hold that the many mansions refered to by our Lord means that there is a Muslim heaven, and a Hindu heaven, etc., because salvation is made possible only in, with, and through Christ. In other words, no one is saved by being a member of a false religion.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311116' date='Jul 3 2007, 01:37 PM']Christ did not say, "Go therefore and dialogue with other religions, endorsing indifferentism and political correctness for the sake of a false peace"; instead, the Lord said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."


Thus, dialogue cannot replace the great commission given by Christ to the Church. In fact, the Magisterium has no authority whatsoever to say anything at all about the Islamic religion, and especially in connection with the worship of the true God; instead, dialogue carried on by the Magisterium is limited to simply trying to help people of different beliefs to get along in a civil manner in a pluralist society.



That said, there can be no theological dialogue between Christianity and Islam, because Islam is founded upon an explicit denial of the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. In connection with this issue it is important to remember that theological indifferentism is a heresy, which was long ago condemned by the Church.

One other thing must be said, because the attempts at dialogue made by the Catholic Church with Islam, which end in watering down the doctrine of the faith, are harmful to the life of the Church herself, but are also harmful to the ecumenical dialogue that must be done with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who truly share with the Roman Church a common belief in the divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Dialouge within the Eastern churches, is a given. I don't find dialouge with Islam harmful to the church. How are we to evangelize if we don't foster dialouge. Jesus promised the gates of hell will not prevail against her. O ye' of little faith.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311147' date='Jul 3 2007, 12:04 PM']Dialouge within the Eastern churches, is a given. I don't find dialouge with Islam harmful to the church. How are we to evangelize if we don't foster dialouge. Jesus promised the gates of hell will not prevail against her. O ye' of little faith.[/quote]
I know that you do not find indifferentist dialogue with Muslims a problem, but I -- as an Eastern Christian -- do, and so do my Eastern Orthodox friends, who see the Roman Church's present attitude as bordering on heresy. Of course, this creates a new obstacle to the restoration of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

God bless,
Todd

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311066' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:11 AM']True woship is offered only in, with, and through the Church, i.e., through the Son, who alone offered a perfect sacrifice to the Father, in the power of the Spirit.

The Old Testament shadows, which pointed forward to Christ, have been fulfilled in Christ, which means that they no longer have any value (cf. the paschal homilies of Pope St. Leo). Thus, Christ is the sole savior of humanity, for -- as scripture declares -- there is no other name given under heaven by which a man can be saved.[/quote]

I didn't imply that Muslims offer true worship, only that their understanding and conception of God is not necessarily a false one. Incomplete and heretical it might be, yet it is still fundamentally monotheistic. I suspect this is the reasoning behind the paragraph in the CCC. It is also the same logic behind acknowledging non-Catholic Christians as being a part of the "plan of salvation."

In any case, like KE, I consider myself in good comapny with JPII and B16. Infallible or not, I like to avoid hasty dismissals of their opinions.

[Apotheoun]

Mental conceptions ([i]understandings[/i]) of God, are not God. The only life-giving knowledge of God that a man can have comes through Christ, for it is only by participating in the divine energy, which flows out from the tri-hypostatic God as a gift of grace, that a man can truly know and worship His creator. Thus, abstracting from the natural world does not give a man a real and living communion with God, because to say that is to fall into Pelagianism. In other words, as the Church Fathers constantly pointed out, knowing that God exists is not the same as knowing who God is, because the former does not give a man a real relationship with His savior, while the latter does, because it is a gift of divine grace.

Finally, as the epistle of James makes clear, the demons know ([i]intellectually[/i]) that God exists and that He is one, but they do not know ([i]experience[/i]) Him, nor does their conceptual understanding of God involve worshipping Him as their savior.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1311186' date='Jul 3 2007, 12:37 PM']In any case, like KE, I consider myself in good comapny with JPII and B16. Infallible or not, I like to avoid hasty dismissals of their opinions.[/quote]
I have no problem dismissing papal opinions that are both theologically vague and ultimately contrary to the Church's tradition.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - I would not characterize my dismissal of papal opinions on Islam as [i]hasty[/i], because I have only come to my present position after many years of investigation and prayer.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311163' date='Jul 3 2007, 02:19 PM']I know that you do not find indifferentist dialogue with Muslims a problem, but I -- as an Eastern Christian -- do, and so do my Eastern Orthodox friends, who see the Roman Church's present attitude as bordering on heresy. Of course, this creates a new obstacle to the restoration of communion with the Orthodox Churches.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Todd,

I did not realize that you are Eastern orthodox and that therein lies the difference of what we believe, concerning what the Pope/s has declared on ecumenism and or Vatican II.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311220' date='Jul 3 2007, 01:02 PM']Todd,

I did not realize that you are Eastern orthodox and that therein lies the difference of what we believe, concerning what the Pope/s has declared on ecumenism and or Vatican II.[/quote]
I am not Eastern Orthodox. I am a Ruthenian Catholic.



God bless,
Todd

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311226' date='Jul 3 2007, 03:04 PM']I am not Eastern Orthodox. I am a Ruthenian Catholic.



God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Nice to meet you Todd. I have been lurking for sometime now and I am blown away with the knowledge that the Phatmass group possess'. I have enjoyed your point of view and in no way do I compromise my faith in desiring to reach out. I find it a very Christ-like quality as Jesus wants [b]all [/b]to find the WAY and THE TRUTH.

[Apotheoun]

Thank you for your kind words, and I too am happy to have made your acquaintance here at Phatmass.

Now, as far as the topic at issue is concerned, I only disagree with the concept of theological dialogue with Muslims, because there can be no theological dialogue with a group that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. On the other hand, there can be dialogue with any group (including Muslims) on subjects that concern civil discourse, e.g., finding ways to avoid violence between members of different religions in a pluralistic society. That said, theological indifferentism is to be absolutely avoided, because it will only confuse both Catholics and Muslims.

God bless,
Todd

[mortify]

We can't assume non-Catholics will be in heaven.

"There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."

[goldenchild17]

wow this has been a fun thread to read. I can't even pick a side. Its like watching a tennis match of your two favorite players . I agree equally with both sides on this one (inasfar as I can agree at all).

Edited July 3, 2007 by goldenchild17

[Luthien]

This is L_D. I will take Apotheoun's side if he changes his stinkin title already. hehe

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1311283' date='Jul 3 2007, 03:36 PM']Thank you for your kind words, and I too am happy to have made your acquaintance here at Phatmass.

Now, as far as the topic at issue is concerned, I only disagree with the concept of theological dialogue with Muslims, because there can be no theological dialogue with a group that openly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. On the other hand, there can be dialogue with any group (including Muslims) on subjects that concern civil discourse, e.g., finding ways to avoid violence between members of different religions in a pluralistic society. That said, theological indifferentism is to be absolutely avoided, because it will only confuse both Catholics and Muslims.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

With due respect, I want to know is by whose authority does Apotheoun speak and claim that we should [b]only[/b] discuss subjects of civil discourse and any theological discussions should be [b]absolutely[/b] avoided because of confusion.

When there is an individual who is sincerely seeking the TRUTH and Holy Spirit is moving this person to the TRUTH, by evangelization, there is no room for confusion, regardless of how far their belief's are from the TRUTH.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='mortify' post='1311514' date='Jul 3 2007, 06:51 PM']We can't assume non-Catholics will be in heaven.

"There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."[/quote]

Morty,

No one has given me their take on Jesus stating there are many mansions in his house.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1311932' date='Jul 3 2007, 11:20 PM']Morty,

No one has given me their take on Jesus stating there are many mansions in his house.[/quote]
I can give you Saint Augustine's take, which happens to be reflected throughout the history of Catholic thought.

"The many mansions point to the different grades of merit in that one eternal life. For there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory; and so also the resurrection of the dead. The saints, like the stars in the sky, obtain in the kingdom different mansions of diverse degrees of brightness; but on account of that one penny no one is cut off from the kingdom; and God will be all in all in such a way, that, as God is love, love will bring it about that what is possessed by each will be common to all. For in this way every one really possesses it, when he loves to see in another what he has not himself. There will not, therefore, be any envying amid this diversity of brightness, since in all of them will be reigning the unity of love." - St. Augustine, [i]Tractates on the Gospel of John[/i], No. 67

Again, the Catechism of the Council of Trent:

"For in my Father's house, says our Lord, there are many mansions, in which shall be distributed rewards of greater and of less value according to each one's deserts. He who soweth sparingly, shall also reap sparingly: and he who soweth in blessings, shall also reap blessings." - Catechism of Trent, Article XII