Do Bishops Knowingly Allow Churches To Be Ugly?

[journeyman]

MichaelF raises one important distinction between "then" and "now" . . . compliance with local building codes
The old cathedrals could take 150 years to finish because they could be put to use before they were "finished" . . . under today's governmental requirements - not likely

But there is also the lowered expectation of the clergy - our primary visiting pastor mentioned this a few weeks ago - talking about the "millions" of dollars it takes to build even a "bland" building . . . when the Church takes the "long" view and says we can finish in 100 years or so, then the Peters Pence method of fund raising works . . . when your options are cash in advance or bank loan, your architectural options are also limited . . . I think that those parishes who built what are today "lovely" structures built as far above their means as one of our parishes today would have to reach to build a "lovely" structure . . . but the idea of sacrifice for the Church is considerably downplayed in the modern Church . . . and the idea of the Church (building) being evidence of one's awe and wonder at the power and goodness of God is also downplayed (another thread elsewhere here at Phatmass talking about wouldn't the funds be better spent on mission work touches on that concept)

The idea of the Church building being as much a worship tool as good music or good liturgy or passionate belief in the sacraments has also diminished . . . although the general design specs (Built of Living Stones is the US Bishops version) doemphasize that the building is much much more than "just" an auditorium in which the parish gathers once a week.

As an earlier poster mentioned, each parish has primary authority - the diocesan review is typically limited to making sure the proposal doesn't fly in the face of the requirements established by the Church through Tradition and (where applicable) canon law or the GIRM

Without big dreamers, there aren't big visions. The nice thing about a "plain" facility is that it allows an incremental interior design process that (after 50-100 years) could result in icons, stained glass windows, statues, even banners, that start to approach the "wow" level epitomized by chuches like the one Apotheon shsowed us. (or not, if the parish doesn't try to make each addition make the space more praiseworthy to God . . . and ends up with a mismatched jumble of this and that . . . which, while all well intentioned, just didn't go together and didn't work)

[KnightofChrist]

If anyone has ever listened to or read the works of ArchBishop Fulton Sheen that could help to understand why modern churches lack beauty. Its the same reason why liberal nuns did away with their crucifixes and habits. Vatican II in his opinion was an attempt to balance the two extremes in the church, those that cared for only social justice and the world, and those that care for only the inside of the church and not at all the world. These extremes have both rebelled from the Church. The protestant like catholics, and the Rad Trad like catholics. Both see Vatican II in the same false light but come to two very different conclusions. This is why you have the SSPX (although they seem to want to get better) and Ultra Liberal Catholics who want Christ without His Cross, and never mention hell to hears delight.

I dont know why the Bishops go along with such a lack of beauty and reverence but cost is surely not the real reason. Because its not only that these "ugly" churches are ugly but down right blank, without feeling, without reverence to the Our Eucharistic Lord.

[prose]

I have been to bowling alley Churches (That is what my hubby and I call them) that have reverence and feeling. Afterall, it is the PEOPLE that make the Church, and not just the structure.

[KnightofChrist]

It is good you have been able to overcome the blankness... and I understand your point. Yet Churches are sacred places and as I have always read and been taught Catholics are to cherish theses places with an outward sign of reverence, not blankness.

[Apotheoun]

For Eastern Christians, faithfully following the teaching of the Second Council of Nicaea, icons are a dogmatic issue, and not merely an issue of pious devotion. That said, a Church without icons lacks a necessary incarnational element and would be seen as theologically and liturgically deficient and illicit.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1312435' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:00 PM']Yet Churches are sacred places and as I have always read and been taught Catholics are to cherish theses places with an outward sign of reverence, not blankness.[/quote]
exactly

[KnightofChrist]

This is an example of how easy and quickly an outward sign of reverence can be added to a church. Now I'm not saying NO Mass do not reverence and holiness, I believe they do, and either is this church in the video a "blank" church. It just an example of how theres no real excuse not to have outward signs of reverence in our Holy Sacred Churches, and how quickly it can be done.

[url="http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2007/04/transformation-of-altar.html"]Watch Here[/url]

Edited July 5, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1314310' date='Jul 5 2007, 05:48 PM']This is an example of how easy and quickly an outward sign of reverence can be added to a church. Now I'm not saying NO Mass do not reverence and holiness, I believe they do, and either is this church in the video a "blank" church. It just an example of how theres no real excuse not to have outward signs of reverence in our Holy Sacred Churches, and how quickly it can be done.

[url="http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2007/04/transformation-of-altar.html"]Watch Here[/url][/quote]
That was cool. I found this direct link to it: [url="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1o9as_la-metamorphose-dun-autel"]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1o9as_la...phose-dun-autel[/url]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1312261' date='Jul 4 2007, 10:41 AM'] [/quote]
I'm glad that someone appreciates my work. lol

[jeffpugh]

I've seen it before. It's amazing. One of my friends calls it a "band-aid" for prepairing for the Traditional Liturgy, though I see it as a fitting substitute.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1314726' date='Jul 5 2007, 09:57 PM']I've seen it before. It's amazing. One of my friends calls it a "band-aid" for prepairing for the Traditional Liturgy, though I see it as a fitting substitute.[/quote]
Yeah, I think it's an awesome idea. For some reason it reminds of Saint Francis and his personal mission to tidy up and dignify the parishes that he encountered.

[jeffpugh]

Probably we should turn to him for intercession on these types of matters. Dressing the alter like that is really cleaning up the parish. It becomes THE focal point of the mass. And it just makes the rest of the church shine. Take a good look at how the Altar looks from afar.

[jiyoung]

I think a modern design can be good when it does draw inspiration from past styles, plus stays rooted in the traditional elements of a beautiful church (long nave, lots of height, beautiful altars, etc), but most of the time it seems to abandon all of that and tries to construct something COMPLETELY new--making a point of being unlike traditional styles.

As far as bishops knowingly allowing churches to be ugly, I'll just point towards the LA cathedral and our lovely cardinal's heavy hand in its design.

[kateri05]

and permitting the female genital sculpture in the sculpture garden. that is seriously so disturbing.


although i will say, i think it is very neat, and rich in tradition, that he (forced ) asked all the missions to give a bell, so that all the ca missions are a "part" of the cathedral. so kudos where it is due

[HeavenlyCalling]

[quote name='MichaelF' post='1311924' date='Jul 4 2007, 12:09 AM']Different economies of scale and type.

Back in der Tag (and on up through the start of the 20th Century in the West), most parish churches (and non-urban cathedrals) were built from local materials, with a mortared stone (or adobe, etc) structure, by the local population.

Now it's wood or steel frame with drywall and insulation (goes up much, much faster), from industrial materials, by professionals (due to building codes and local/State laws).

Current Cathedrals are a different matter, though. You can't just hire a local contractor to build you a cathedral, as public structures of that capacity and aesthetic are the purview of specialist/semi-specialist architect firms.

The problem with hiring an architect who specializes in cathedrals/"worship spaces" is that, more often than not, you get the "vision" too. IOW, the architect puts his/her own spin on the final product. Ask for a neoGothic structure, using St. Patrick's as a template, you can easily end up with Our Lady of The Angels (LA Archdiocese), once the architect gets done putting in his $0.02.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (whew!) should mandate a list of 5-6 broad "styles" that chapels and cathedrals must adhere to. NeoGothic, Byzantine, Romanesque, etc.
Not cookie-cutter templates, but broad guidleines to keep us away from things like Cardinal Mahoney's Furher Bunker.

Or this: (St Luke's, Austria)
[img]http://bp2.blogger.com/_AiM_qVeVUEY/Rmjfp-YB_HI/AAAAAAAABZQ/nRvj_JMa2FE/s400/SanLucaInterno.jpg[/img]

[img]http://bp2.blogger.com/_AiM_qVeVUEY/Rmjfp-YB_GI/AAAAAAAABZI/_perGflDUXE/s400/SanLucaAltare.jpg[/img]

Deacons: Rev Mr. Worf & Rev Mr. Riker.[/quote]
First thought that came to mind, you are going to spend a fortune on Windex. What is that thing, a comet? Please tell me it is not the alter, I may have to cry. Where are the Catholic symbols? Where is the Cross, our Lady, the Saints, anyone related to the Catholic Church!!!

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1312157' date='Jul 4 2007, 08:42 AM'][img]http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2000/11/30/mn_cathedral4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/war-of-the-worlds.jpg[/img][/quote]
LOL. That is not a fit place for the Holy Mass to be celebrated, there should be rules against it. It looks like a clam, if you ask me.

I think that Churchs can be small and still beautiful. The Church we go to into the summer ( different state ) is simple, and yet you get a feeling of the divine. You do not get the feeling that you will bump into an alien in there, like you would in CA.

Edited July 9, 2007 by HeavenlyCalling

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1312389' date='Jul 4 2007, 02:13 PM']okay, but couldn't the bishop overrule the pastor? isn't that part of his duty to protect his flock?[/quote]

I don't know. I just know how it happened at my in laws parish. You would think that a bishop could do that, but.... I have no idea how that works in regards to Church buildings. From what my mother in law said I got the impression that it was all at the hands of their pastor.

[Akalyte]

Read "Ugly as Sin" By Michael s. Rose. Ugly architecture in churches happens with people who arent even christian or Catholic and no nothing about catholic theology start building churches. It's quite scary. I would not go to mass there if it was the last church on earth.

[kateri05]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1319022' date='Jul 8 2007, 06:24 PM']I would not go to mass there if it was the last church on earth.[/quote]

well i would i mean, if its really the last one, i wouldn't want to miss mass on sundays

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1319724' date='Jul 9 2007, 12:04 AM']well i would i mean, if its really the last one, i wouldn't want to miss mass on sundays[/quote]

I would if it were the Extraordinary Form

[KnightofChrist]

And I would for ether as long as both where don't with sacredness and reverence and of course properly.