What The Motu Proprio Is Not

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1317108' date='Jul 7 2007, 06:46 PM']I think that the Tridentine liturgy is beautiful, and I'm happy to see that it could see wider availability, for the reasons Era noted above.

But often on this site when I see people celebrating the beauty of the Tridentine liturgy it is done in such a manner that it tears down the Novus Ordo. I have addressed it where I deemed appropriate. Perhaps I have not always been as charitable as I could have been, and I'm sorry for any offense I've caused in that regard. But I think it's very important to keep in mind that neither is holier or better or more worthy than the other, and I have more than once seen traditionalists on this site denigrate a form of the Mass I love and find to be quite holy and conducive to worship.[/quote]

Apology accepted my dear friend in Christ! I would add I know that I have not charitable at times when I should have been, there is no excuse for not being charitable, I humbly apologize to all I have offended. Indeed I have been hurt by some of statements against traditionalist on this board, some in misunderstanding of true tradition some against tradition itself. Because of a select vocal few, who are in love with tradition, but sometimes fail at showing love to others ([i]something we all fail to do[/i]) namely these are two that I can think of, one of which has seem to since repent and trying to charitable, their comments seem to be the excuse used by some to judge all traditionalist, again there is no excuse for not being charitable, we can not sin so good can come from it. "Non-traditionalist" or what have you, seem to be just as willing to start a fight and seem to get away with it more than traditionalist do. But we all have failed and come short. Prayfully this Motu Proprio will untie and not divide as are the prayers of the Holy Father.

And I think traditionalist loyal to Mother Church have the same fears as His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI of the New Mass which is why this motu proprio is needed. I refer to the article again, emphasis added...

[quote][b]Why it was needed[/b]

[i]From the first days of his pontificate, Benedict XVI has emphasized the continuity of the Catholic tradition, insisting that the teachings of Vatican II must be interpreted in light of the constant teachings of the Church in the preceding centuries. With Summorum Pontificum he applies that same rule to the Roman liturgy-- and provides new norms of canon law to carry out that rule.

[color="#8B0000"]Even before he became Pope Benedict XVI, in his many written works on the liturgy, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger remarked that [u]the Novus Ordo liturgy was not the organic reform that had been recommended by Vatican II, but a break in continuity-- a new form that had been imposed upon the faithful, while the old order of the Mass was abruptly discarded.[/u] In the opening passage of Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict indirectly refers to that complaint when he says that the universal Church must uphold "the usages universally handed down by apostolic and unbroken tradition."[/color]

These traditions, the Pope continues, "are to be maintained not only so that errors may be avoided, but also so that the faith may be passed on in its integrity, since the Church’s rule of prayer (lex orandi) corresponds to her rule of belief (lex credendi).” Because the old Latin liturgy nourished the faithful for centuries, he reasons, it is incumbent upon the Church today to ensure that "this liturgical edifice, so to speak, might once again appear splendid in its dignity and harmony.”

While recognizing the glory of the older liturgical forms, Pope Benedict also frankly alludes to the chaos that has followed the liturgical changes of Vatican II. In his letter to the world's bishops the Pontiff reminds them that he has lived through the era of change-- indeed he was one of the champions of liturgical reform as envisioned by the Council-- and seen the uneven and sometimes appalling results. He remarks, "I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church."

With his motu proprio the Holy Father hopes to restore reverence through a wider use of the "extraordinary form" of the liturgy-- the Mass of the 1962 Missal. At the same time, it is clear, he hopes that the wider use of the old form, with its scrupulous attention to rubrics, will encourage a more faithful and reverent approach to the ordinary form in the Novus Ordo Mass.[/i][/quote]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1317108' date='Jul 7 2007, 06:46 PM']Traditionalists also love the Mass, and we should be able to come together each in appreciation and respect for the others' form of the rite. I see that respect from time to time from traditionalists here, but there are many times it is absent, and that bothers me.

I hope the Motu Proprio serves to foster mutual appreciation and respect, and to bring about greater unity rather than furthering a "my form of the rite is better/more holy/more conducive to worship than yours" type of mentality. If the former is indeed what happens, then perhaps Era's prediction of this being a historic day in 500 years will be true.[/quote]

I too pray, that the Motu Proprio will encourage a more faithful, reverent and respectful approach to both forms of the Holy Mass.

Edited July 8, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1317081' date='Jul 7 2007, 06:27 PM']Which leads me to ask something I've been wondering about lately -- we certainly have our regular trads hanging out here -- but why aren't there very many regular liberal Catholics visitors here?[/quote]
"Liberal Catholics" are Catholic-in-name-only for the most part - the Faith really doesn't mean that much to them. By their nature, defending the Faith would not be an activity which would interest them.

There was "LittleLes" a few years ago, who would make you long for Budge instead. (Les, of course, was interested only in tearing down the Faith.)

[journeyman]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=Post&CODE=02&f=2&t=69932&qpid=1315687"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?a...mp;qpid=1315687[/url]


[quote name='cappie' post='1315687' date='Jul 6 2007, 07:32 PM']Time again to repost these, I think:
Fr. Z’s 5 Rules of Engagement for after the Motu Proprio is released:

1) Rejoice because our liturgical life has been enriched, not because “we win”. Everyone wins when the Church’s life is enriched. This is not a “zero sum game”.

2) Do not strut. Let us be gracious to those who have in the past not been gracious in regard to our “legitimate aspirations”.

3) Show genuine Christian joy. If you want to attract people to what gives you so much consolation and happiness, be inviting and be joyful. Avoid the sourness some of the more traditional stamp have sadly worn for so long.

4) Be engaged in the whole life of your parishes, especially in works of mercy organized by the same. If you want the whole Church to benefit from the use of the older liturgy, then you who are shaped by the older form of Mass should be of benefit to the whole Church in concrete terms.

5) If the document doesn’t say everything we might hope for, don’t beesh about it like a whiner. Speak less of our rights and what we deserve, or what it ought to have been, as if we were our own little popes, and more about our gratitude, gratitude, gratitude for what God gives us.

[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/[/url][/quote]

[HeavenlyCalling]

I love both forms. If I could alternate them I would be as happy as a clam. That being said, there have, as the Holy Father said, been abuses in way the 'regular' Mass has been celebrated. A few sudder- inducing examples leap to mind. I think that, because the TLM has not been exposed to that, some people see it as 'better'. I do hope, however, that Bishops encourse the TLM in their flocks.

God Bless!!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1317183' date='Jul 7 2007, 07:47 PM']Apology accepted my dear friend in Christ! I would add I know that I have not charitable at times when I should have been, there is no excuse for not being charitable, I humbly apologize to all I have offended. Indeed I have been hurt by some of statements against traditionalist on this board, some in misunderstanding of true tradition some against tradition itself. Because of a select vocal few, who are in love with tradition, but sometimes fail at showing love to others ([i]something we all fail to do[/i]) namely these are two that I can think of, one of which has seem to since repent and trying to charitable, their comments seem to be the excuse used by some to judge all traditionalist, again there is no excuse for not being charitable, we can not sin so good can come from it. "Non-traditionalist" or what have you, seem to be just as willing to start a fight and seem to get away with it more than traditionalist do. But we all have failed and come short. Prayfully this Motu Proprio will untie and not divide as are the prayers of the Holy Father.

And I think traditionalist loyal to Mother Church have the same fears as His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI of the New Mass which is why this motu proprio is needed. I refer to the article again, emphasis added...


I too pray, that the Motu Proprio will encourage a more faithful, reverent and respectful approach to both forms of the Holy Mass.[/quote]
I agree with what you say here, and I hope this is the kind of attitude the Motu Proprio encourages, that we dialogue about the Mass we love and see beauty in each of the forms of the rite.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Terra Firma

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1317165' date='Jul 7 2007, 06:25 PM']Mocking the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] (Tridentine) is nothing less than an expression of anti-Catholicism. When this comes from Roman Catholics themselves it is particularly deplorable.
The same goes for making fun the [i]Forma Ordinaria[/i] (Novus Ordo) as approved by the Church. Such attitudes and behaviors can be quite sinful in extreme cases.
Roman Catholics who fail to see the importance and greatness of the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] are not in keeping with the expressed mind of the Church and are alienated from their own tradition.
Recognizing and combatting distortions of the Liturgy, and the many scandalous and sinful abuses of the [i]Forma Ordinaria[/i], when done in the proper spirit, is in fact an expression of love and fidelity to the Church and is not the same as "bashing the Novus Ordo". It is a sign of lukewarmness and/or unorthodoxy for a Catholic to be entirely unmoved by the fact of these abuses in the Church today.[/quote]
Very well said. I'm so happy the way Pope Benedict explained the two also - that they are [i]one[/i] Roman Rite, 2 editions of the missal. I love the Forma Extraordinaria & the Forma Ordinaria. In both Jesus comes down on the altar! Some of the most reverent Masses I've attended with many periods of silence, were the Forma Ordinaria offered by Fr. Anthony Bus at St. Stanislaus Kostka in Chicago. Then St. John Cantius nearby is awesome too for both forms.

[Akalyte]

well my priest is already making arrangements and offering classes on Tridentine spirituality. We wants all the parishoners opinions on what we should do and when we should have the mass prayed.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1317052' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:10 PM']i think that people easily confuse proud, annoying, radical traditionalists with those who humbly prefer the 1962 missal, while still in loving submission to the Holy Father, etc etc. and i'll be honest, with very few phatmass exceptions, i really tend to only meet the former and not really the later.

luckily those on phatmass continue to convince me that they do indeed exist so thanks for your great witness![/quote]

Same here!

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1317108' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:46 PM']I think Era's words from another thread bear repeating here.
I've been pretty vocal about my feelings about traditional Catholicism, so I would not be surprised if you had me in mind in making this comment.

I think that the Tridentine liturgy is beautiful, and I'm happy to see that it could see wider availability, for the reasons Era noted above.

But often on this site when I see people celebrating the beauty of the Tridentine liturgy it is done in such a manner that it tears down the Novus Ordo. I have addressed it where I deemed appropriate. Perhaps I have not always been as charitable as I could have been, and I'm sorry for any offense I've caused in that regard. But I think it's very important to keep in mind that neither is holier or better or more worthy than the other, and I have more than once seen traditionalists on this site denigrate a form of the Mass I love and find to be quite holy and conducive to worship.

Traditionalists also love the Mass, and we should be able to come together each in appreciation and respect for the others' form of the rite. I see that respect from time to time from traditionalists here, but there are many times it is absent, and that bothers me.

I hope the Motu Proprio serves to foster mutual appreciation and respect, and to bring about greater unity rather than furthering a "my form of the rite is better/more holy/more conducive to worship than yours" type of mentality. If the former is indeed what happens, then perhaps Era's prediction of this being a historic day in 500 years will be true.[/quote]

Agreeeeed. :

[quote name='Premed_Jakey' post='1317120' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:51 PM']We are here. I personally dont throw around a lot of liberal ideas since I see that most are traditionalists, and I dont like waves. We are all Catholics here![/quote]

Maybe this shouldn't make me chuckle, but it does! I never considered myself "traditionalist" so much as a faithful Catholic. I love the traditions of the Church, but like the quote from Luthien below, I (for a very long time) was (and occasionally still am) turned off to the idea of "Traditionalism" because of the very vocal (and sometimes at least borderline schismatic) "Rad-Trads."

[quote name='Luthien' post='1317142' date='Jul 7 2007, 09:07 PM']Oh shucks, I actully didn't have anyone specifically in mind when I said that! I do agree with your post, I was turned off to Traditionalism by most Rad Trads until I met my husband. [/quote]

Ditto that.... except for the whole husband thing (my husband and I have always been pretty much on the same page on that front). lol I had to grow to an understanding of the difference between Traditionalism and Rad-Trad on my own before I was able to realize that I really am more Traditional than not. I love the Novus Ordo Mass, but I cannot abide a "bad" ("liberal," "liturgically abusive," etc.) parish/Mass. I also love the TLM (my 3 youngest brothers proudly serve at a TLM almost every Sunday).

[tojo]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1318351' date='Jul 8 2007, 11:54 AM']well my priest is already making arrangements and offering classes on Tridentine spirituality.[/quote]

My priest at my home parish (which is charismatic) today explained the motu propio to our parishioners and said that our parish woul definately be celebrating some Tridentine Masses, we're not currently planning to change our normal schedule of NO masses, but at the very least, we will celebrate the Tridentine Mass on special occasions (such as the feasts of the some of the Saints not on the new calendar), with the possibilty of more frequent celebrations being left open.

He also said that those interested in receieving training to serve at Tridentine Masses should contact him. He also asked how many of our parishioners had a good grasp of Latin, and at least three dozen people raised their hands. Finally he told us that at our next after Mass "ask the pastor" brunch in the parish center, people should bring questions they have about the Tridentine Mass.

I can't wait to attend a Tridentine Mass, especially in my home parish!

[Luthien]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1318746' date='Jul 8 2007, 04:50 PM']My priest at my home parish (which is charismatic) today explained the motu propio to our parishioners and said that our parish woul definately be celebrating some Tridentine Masses, we're not currently planning to change our normal schedule of NO masses, but at the very least, we will celebrate the Tridentine Mass on special occasions (such as the feasts of the some of the Saints not on the new calendar), with the possibilty of more frequent celebrations being left open.

He also said that those interested in receieving training to serve at Tridentine Masses should contact him. He also asked how many of our parishioners had a good grasp of Latin, and at least three dozen people raised their hands. Finally he told us that at our next after Mass "ask the pastor" brunch in the parish center, people should bring questions they have about the Tridentine Mass.

I can't wait to attend a Tridentine Mass, especially in my home parish![/quote]


I LOVE the ask the pastor thing! What a great way to inform people! I think a lot of trepidation about the forma extrordinaria is rooted in just not knowing enough about it. I came from that standpoint.

[kateri05]

sigh.... not a word was mentioned at the parish i attended

[faithfulrock3r]

wait the language offensive to Jews will not be returning? I thought it was, or at least the thing where we pray for their conversion on good friday (which isnt that offensive anyway lol). could someone please explain?

[homeschoolmom]

We've always been praying for the conversion of the Jews on GF.

[tojo]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1319154' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:27 PM']We've always been praying for the conversion of the Jews on GF.[/quote]


I was thinking the same thing, but I've only ever attended GF service at one parish..... but everyone prays for the Jews to accept their Messiah, right?

[brendan1104]

Their Messiah has already come, His Name is Jesus Christ. The old rite is very much correct in its prayer and terminology. In the new rite, the Jews are prayed for to "remain faithful to their covenant" or something to that effect. But they're not faithful to the covenant, because God upheld it and gave them the Messiah Whom they rejected.

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1319202' date='Jul 8 2007, 08:42 PM']I was thinking the same thing, but I've only ever attended GF service at one parish..... but everyone prays for the Jews to accept their Messiah, right?[/quote]

[tojo]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1319226' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:49 PM']Their Messiah has already come, His Name is Jesus Christ. The old rite is very much correct in its prayer and terminology. In the new rite, the Jews are prayed for to "remain faithful to their covenant" or something to that effect. But they're not faithful to the covenant, because God upheld it and gave them the Messiah Whom they rejected.[/quote]


You are aware that Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews I was referring to, right?

As far as the new rite prayers, I don't remember them precisely, but I know my parish prays for the conversion of Jews, atheists, and all peoples every Good Friday.

[Ragamuffin]

I realize this isn't the same thing exactly, but there are some parallels. The Methodist church I currently attend has two services, a traditional liturgical style service and a more informal "contemporary" one. Both services glorify God and edify believers in different ways. Seems to me that if there are enough people interested in a given parish, the priest should perhaps have both the TLM and Novus Ordo mass every week. Or maybe he could do the TLM once a month to introduce people to it.

Question: Would it be permissible for a priest to blend elements from both into one service since both are approved or does he have to do one or the other [i]in toto[/i]?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ragamuffin' post='1319515' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:05 PM']Question: Would it be permissible for a priest to blend elements from both into one service since both are approved or does he have to do one or the other [i]in toto[/i]?[/quote]
Blending of the two [i]usages[/i] -- at the present time -- is not permitted, but the Pope did propose a study about adding feasts for newer saints to the older rite, and he spoke about some interplay between the two lectionaries.

[CatholicCid]

Forma extraordinaria

Is this what we are supposed to call it now? Or can I use the english Extraordinary Form? The latin drives me

[brendan1104]

Pre-1955:

[quote]Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that our God and Lord may remove the veil from their hearts; that they also may acknowledge Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us pray.

('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is said:)

Almighty and Eternal God, Who dost not exclude from Thy mercy even the faithless Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of Thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, Who livest and reignest with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, through all endless ages. Amen.[/quote]

1960 Version:

[quote]Let us also pray that our God and Lord will look kindly on the Jews, so that they too may acknowledge the Redeemer of all, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let us pray, let us kneel, let us arise.

Almighty and eternal God, you made the promises to Abraham and his descendants. In your goodness hear the prayers of your Church so that the people whom from of old you made your own may come to the fullness of redemption.[/quote]

1970/Current Prayer:

[quote]Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.

(Silent prayer)

Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.[/quote]