What The Motu Proprio Is Not

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1317081' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:27 PM']Which leads me to ask something I've been wondering about lately -- we certainly have our regular trads hanging out here -- but why aren't there very many regular liberal Catholics visitors here?[/quote]

I like to consider my self more on the liberal side of the fence, but not a leftist. More simply, politically I am a liberal, and with the church i am more moderate. Does that make sense?!?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1320167' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:31 AM']I like to consider my self more on the liberal side of the fence, but not a leftist. More simply, politically I am a liberal, and with the church i am more moderate. Does that make sense?!?[/quote]
How do you define liberal?

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1320172' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:37 AM']How do you define liberal?[/quote]
In the liberal sense of the church, I consider myself liberal because I see no problem with layministers as Extraordinary minsiters of the Eucharist. I see no problem with female altar servers. Thats how I define my self as a liberal. And Politically, I consider myself liberal because I am from the working class. I know that the ideals of the liberals are not always in sinc with the Church, but at the same time, they help families put food on the table.

I know I went off Topic, Im sorry. Won't happen again

Edited July 9, 2007 by IrishSalesian

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1320177' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:47 AM']In the liberal sense of the church, I consider myself liberal because I see no problem with layministers as Extraordinary minsiters of the Eucharist. I see no problem with female altar servers. Thats how I define my self as a liberal. And Politically, I consider myself liberal because I am from the working class. I know that the ideals of the liberals are not always in sinc with the Church, but at the same time, they help families put food on the table.

I know I went off Topic, Im sorry. Won't happen again[/quote]
you went off topic cause I asked the question.
my bad as well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1316992' date='Jul 7 2007, 04:56 PM']The motu proprio gives diocesan bishops far less discretion in enforcing the liturgical norms, since the Pope emphasizes that priests have the right to celebrate the older form of the Mass without any special permission. The practical test of the motu proprio, then, may be whether bishops put pressure on their priests to discourage the extraordinary form.[/quote]
I asked the monsignor of my parish when we could expect to celebrate the Mass using the the Tridentine rite. He replied "never," partially if not mostly because he doesn't know Latin. In my view, the practical test, whatever about the [i]potential[/i] to celebrate the Mass using the Tridentine rite, is whether priests will feel comfortable / able to celebrate the Mass in Latin.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1317089' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:31 PM']Who knows? Liberal Catholics don't hang out with me because I don't agree with them. :sad:[/quote]

That alone is no reason for someone not to hang out with you. If we are honest with our friends, we disagree with every one of them on at least a few things None of my liberal friends quit hanging out with my because I'm an orthodox Catholic. They are very tolerant people, after all, and if they aren't, I just remind them that they're being "intolerant of my lifestyle choice." ;-)

I think it's good for those of us considering the priesthood to seek out friendships with liberal Catholics because once you become a priest you may find yourself surrounded by them, so you might as well learn how to walk that delicate balance of relating to different points of view without sacrificing too much in the way of Church teaching.

[Luthien]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1320331' date='Jul 9 2007, 01:12 PM']That alone is no reason for someone not to hang out with you. If we are honest with our friends, we disagree with every one of them on at least a few things None of my liberal friends quit hanging out with my because I'm an orthodox Catholic. They are very tolerant people, after all, and if they aren't, I just remind them that they're being "intolerant of my lifestyle choice." ;-)

I think it's good for those of us considering the priesthood to seek out friendships with liberal Catholics because once you become a priest you may find yourself surrounded by them, so you might as well learn how to walk that delicate balance of relating to different points of view without sacrificing too much in the way of Church teaching.[/quote]


Aw shucks, I was mostly kidding. Sorry about that. I tend to get along with all kinds of people, and I do pull out the "intolerance card" every now and again in needed.

[Anna]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1320238' date='Jul 9 2007, 10:19 AM']I asked the monsignor of my parish when we could expect to celebrate the Mass using the the Tridentine rite. He replied "never," partially if not mostly because he doesn't know Latin. In my view, the practical test, whatever about the [i]potential[/i] to celebrate the Mass using the Tridentine rite, is whether priests will feel comfortable / able to celebrate the Mass in Latin.[/quote]"
My pastor has been quoted as saying that he "would die before celebrating a Latin Mass." Not that he can't learn the Tridentine form; rather, he refuses to. This pastor is able to celebrate the Novus Ordo in two or three languages...just won't do Latin.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Anna' post='1321260' date='Jul 9 2007, 06:45 PM']"
My pastor has been quoted as saying that he "would die before celebrating a Latin Mass." Not that he can't learn the Tridentine form; rather, he refuses to. This pastor is able to celebrate the Novus Ordo in two or three languages...just won't do Latin. [/quote]
More good ol' liberal openness and tolerance . . .

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anna' post='1321260' date='Jul 9 2007, 06:45 PM']"
My pastor has been quoted as saying that he "would die before celebrating a Latin Mass." Not that he can't learn the Tridentine form; rather, he refuses to. This pastor is able to celebrate the Novus Ordo in two or three languages...just won't do Latin. [/quote]


Well come september you can perhaps get the Holy See to get him to reconsider....

[Anna]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1321822' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:31 PM']Well come september you can perhaps get the Holy See to get him to reconsider....[/quote]

lol...That would probably be the day; but we should never give up hoping! My church is very, very old and beautiful. It would be an ideal location for the glorious Tridentine Mass.

I'm not quite sure about the rules here - haven't been on PhatMass in such a long time - so I won't post a link. But has anyone checked out the video clips on youtube, using keywords motu proprio? There's a real sweet one there by a priest who is obviously very happy about the document.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anna' post='1321873' date='Jul 9 2007, 10:46 PM']lol...That would probably be the day; but we should never give up hoping! My church is very, very old and beautiful. It would be an ideal location for the glorious Tridentine Mass.

I'm not quite sure about the rules here - haven't been on PhatMass in such a long time - so I won't post a link. But has anyone checked out the video clips on youtube, using keywords motu proprio? There's a real sweet one there by a priest who is obviously very happy about the document.[/quote]


As I understand it, as long as the priest does not put done Vatican II or Novus Ordo, and is loyal to Mother Church, I think it would be ok.

If you still have worries could you please pm me the link?

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1320167' date='Jul 9 2007, 08:31 AM']I like to consider my self more on the liberal side of the fence, but not a leftist. More simply, politically I am a liberal, and with the church i am more moderate. Does that make sense?!?[/quote]

I guess so!

And when I mean "liberal" I mean Cafeteria Catholics complaining about women not being priests, don't think we need confession and would just rather have some ceremony where they could write down their sins on a slip of paper and burn it in a fire -- or throw a ceremonial rock into a pond, have their tubes tied, and think their volunteerism at the local Planned Parenthood office is a fine Catholic "social justice" thing to do.

I guess I've always wondered why we don't see a lot of the liberal, "Cafeteria" Catholics on Phatmass. Sometimes I wonder if we scare them away, or on the flipside maybe they really can't be bothered by religion enough outside of Mass on Sunday (when they feel like it.)

Perhaps I should have used the term "heterodox"...

Edited July 10, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1321903' date='Jul 9 2007, 11:59 PM']I guess so!

And when I mean "liberal" I mean Cafeteria Catholics complaining about women not being priests, don't think we need confession and would just rather have some ceremony where they could write down their sins on a slip of paper and burn it in a fire -- or throw a ceremonial rock into a pond, have their tubes tied, and think their volunteerism at the local Planned Parenthood office is a fine Catholic "social justice" thing to do.

I guess I've always wondered why we don't see a lot of the liberal, "Cafeteria" Catholics on Phatmass. Sometimes I wonder if we scare them away, or on the flipside maybe they really can't be bothered by religion enough outside of Mass on Sunday (when they feel like it.)

Perhaps I should have used the term "heterodox"... [/quote]

seriously i think its because we've converted the ones who stayed

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1320359' date='Jul 9 2007, 12:47 PM']Aw shucks, I was mostly kidding. Sorry about that. I tend to get along with all kinds of people, and I do pull out the "intolerance card" every now and again in needed. [/quote]

Cool... seems like I often miss that people are joking online, which is odd since I joke all the time... maybe I figure everyone else intends to be taken seriously most of the time

Anyway, getting back on topic... the Motu Proprio is not the make and model of an Italian compact car.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1322442' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:24 AM']Cool... seems like I often miss that people are joking online, which is odd since I joke all the time... maybe I figure everyone else intends to be taken seriously most of the time

Anyway, getting back on topic... the Motu Proprio is not the make and model of an Italian compact car.[/quote]
The Motu Proprio is my magical fantasy dream car.

[EJames]

SSPX leadership reaction
posted by Shawn Tribe

the reaction of SSPX leadership to Summorum Pontificum, and to that end, an encouraging article has shown up today. Let's pray that unity might be restored.

Madrid, Jul 12, 2007 / 10:30 am (CNA).- In an exclusive interview with the Spanish daily “La Razon,” the superior general of the Lefebvrites, Bishop Bernard Fellay, said Benedict XVI’s Motu Propio allowing universal use of the Missal of 1962 as an extraordinary form of celebrating the Mass “is not a step, it’s a leap” of historic proportions.

The schismatic bishop spoke with journalist Vittorio Messori from the general house of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X, founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. The movement boasts of 481 priests, 90 lay brothers, 206 nuns, 6 seminaries, 117 monasteries, 82 schools, 6 university institutes, 450 places of worship in 62 countries and at least half a million followers.

According to La Razon, Fellay’s reactions are “more positive than what anyone who knows the complexity of the ongoing case with the Holy See for more than 20 years could have expected: the Mass, not only in Latin, but according to the ancient rite, has always been the rallying cry of the Lefebvrists. But dissidents have always insisted on the fact that the new Eucharistic liturgy is nothing more than the expression of an orientation that is unacceptable in many aspects, adopted after Vatican II by the Catholic Church.

Thus, in certain traditionalist circles, it has often been said that a decree such as the one approved by Pope Ratzinger would not only be insufficient, but would in some way be a distraction and would reinforce the ambiguities.”

Nevertheless, Fellay said, “This is a truly historic day. We desire to express our profound gratitude to Benedict XVI. His document is a gift of Grace. It’s not a step; it’s a leap in the right direction.”

In addition, Fellay said the “normalization” of the Mass, “which does not belong to St. Pius VI but rather has always belonged to the Church,” is “an act of justice, it’s a supernatural extraordinary help in times of grave ecclesial crisis.”

“The reaffirmation by the Holy Father of the continuity of Vatican II and the new Mass with the constant Tradition of the Church moves us to continue the doctrinal discussion. ‘Lex orandi, lex credendi’: as one prays, so one believes. And now it has been recognized that in the eternal Mass, one can ‘adequately’ pray,” Fellay said.

“This document is a fundamental stage in a journey that now could be accelerated,” he noted, saying he hoped as well it would lead to a revisiting of the issue of the excommunications put in place by John Paul II.

According to Messori, the effort to recover the Church’s tradition, “initiated by John Paul II, although constrained to the obligatory excommunication, takes on noble success with Benedict XVI, in the perspective of the old Ratzinger project of a ‘reform of the reform,’ and not only of the ancient liturgy.”

[cmotherofpirl]

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