Protestantism

[Nathan]

The question is simple: Is Protestantism a heresy? And if so, can and should Catholics view and proclaim Protestantism as such?

(Note: I understand that not all Protestants are [i]heretics[/i] proper, for various reasons -- in fact, most probably are not. But this is not what I am asking.)

(Second Note: I understand that we are living in ecumenical times. But the first rule of any fruitful dialogue is honesty and upfrontness. If asked what we believe, we must say so.)

[adt6247]

[quote name='Nathan' post='1324225' date='Jul 11 2007, 11:20 AM']The question is simple: Is Protestantism a heresy? And if so, can and should Catholics view and proclaim Protestantism as such?

(Note: I understand that not all Protestants are [i]heretics[/i] proper, for various reasons -- in fact, most probably are not. But this is not what I am asking.)

(Second Note: I understand that we are living in ecumenical times. But the first rule of any fruitful dialogue is honesty and upfrontness. If asked what we believe, we must say so.)[/quote]
Protestantism isn't a single heresy, it's an amalgam of heresies. Protestants deny key doctrine, like the immaculate conception, transubstantiation, etc.

As different protestant groups believe different heresies (double predestination, [i]sola (fide, scriptura, gracia)[/i], iconoclasm, etc.), protestantism cannot be a formal heresy, per se, like Jansenism.

[goldenchild17]

Different Protestant groups, different heresies. All are born from one heresy or another.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nathan' post='1324225' date='Jul 11 2007, 09:20 AM']The question is simple: Is Protestantism a heresy? And if so, can and should Catholics view and proclaim Protestantism as such?

(Note: I understand that not all Protestants are [i]heretics[/i] proper, for various reasons -- in fact, most probably are not. But this is not what I am asking.)

(Second Note: I understand that we are living in ecumenical times. But the first rule of any fruitful dialogue is honesty and upfrontness. If asked what we believe, we must say so.)[/quote]

All Protestants are heretics. Some are formal heretics, some are material heretics.

Protestantism is, as has been said, a group of heresies.

[Honour]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1324614' date='Jul 11 2007, 02:58 PM']All Protestants are heretics. Some are formal heretics, some are material heretics.

Protestantism is, as has been said, a group of heresies.[/quote]

What definition of heretic are we working off here?

[farglefeezlebut]

What is the difference between a formal heretic and a material heretic?

[journeyman]

It should be possible to disagree with our separated brethren without adding as fuel to the fire a label which is certain to raise an obstacle to a fair discussion.


[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1343615' date='Jul 29 2007, 04:36 PM']What is the difference between a formal heretic and a material heretic?[/quote]


And so a baptized Christian, external to the Church, who is in invincible ignorance, is a material heretic, and not a formal.
John Henry Newman, Apologia, Note G, Lying and Equivocation

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are,therefore,two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".
Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity, as distinct from wanton opposition, supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the reins and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.

II. DISTINCTIONS

Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Heresy also differs from schism. Schismatics, says St. Thomas, in the strict sense, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church. The unity of the Church consists in the connection of its members with each other and of all the members with the head. Now this head is Christ whose representative in the Church is the supreme pontiff. And therefore the name of schismatics is given to those who will not submit to the supreme pontiff nor communicate with the members of the Church subject to him. Since the definition of Papal Infallibility, schism usually implies the heresy of denying this dogma. Heresy is opposed to faith; schism to charity; so that, although all heretics are schismatics because loss of faith involves separation from the Church, not all schismatics are necessarily heretics, since a man may, from anger, pride, ambition, or the like, sever himself from the communion of the Church and yet believe all the Church proposes for our belief (II-II, Q. xxix, a. 1). Such a one, however, would be more properly called rebellious than heretical.
Catholic Encyclopedia, Heresy

[journeyman]

It should be possible to disagree with our separated brethren without adding as fuel to the fire a label which is certain to raise an obstacle to a fair discussion.


[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1343615' date='Jul 29 2007, 04:36 PM']What is the difference between a formal heretic and a material heretic?[/quote]


And so a baptized Christian, external to the Church, who is in invincible ignorance, is a material heretic, and not a formal.
John Henry Newman, Apologia, Note G, Lying and Equivocation

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". "The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are,therefore,two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".
Pertinacity, that is, obstinate adhesion to a particular tenet is required to make heresy formal. For as long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision he remains a Catholic Christian at heart and his wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions. Considering that the human intellect can assent only to truth, real or apparent, studied pertinacity, as distinct from wanton opposition, supposes a firm subjective conviction which may be sufficient to inform the conscience and create "good faith". Such firm convictions result either from circumstances over which the heretic has no control or from intellectual delinquencies in themselves more or less voluntary and imputable. A man born and nurtured in heretical surroundings may live and die without ever having a doubt as to the truth of his creed. On the other hand a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the reins and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.

II. DISTINCTIONS

Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Heresy also differs from schism. Schismatics, says St. Thomas, in the strict sense, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church. The unity of the Church consists in the connection of its members with each other and of all the members with the head. Now this head is Christ whose representative in the Church is the supreme pontiff. And therefore the name of schismatics is given to those who will not submit to the supreme pontiff nor communicate with the members of the Church subject to him. Since the definition of Papal Infallibility, schism usually implies the heresy of denying this dogma. Heresy is opposed to faith; schism to charity; so that, although all heretics are schismatics because loss of faith involves separation from the Church, not all schismatics are necessarily heretics, since a man may, from anger, pride, ambition, or the like, sever himself from the communion of the Church and yet believe all the Church proposes for our belief (II-II, Q. xxix, a. 1). Such a one, however, would be more properly called rebellious than heretical.
Catholic Encyclopedia, Heresy


Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
Catechism Section 2089

[journeyman]

oops, double post, sorry

[Guest BrotherStephenFrancis]

Hi all... new here, and surprisingly, a paid staff member at a Prot church, so my answer might shock you.

Is Protestantism heresy?

Do you have a brother?
Did your brother ever make you mad? That's one thing.
Did your brother ever say things he didn't mean in anger? Again, another thing.

Did your brother ever get so mad that he left the house (after tearing it apart) and went to live on his own, publishing paper after paper and book after book calling your Mother a whore?

Didn't think so.

Protestantism is heresy. Schism, rebellion, lunacy and straight-up heresy.

[tojo]

Protestantism is not heresy. Protestantism is a branch of Christianity. It is however, a branch inherently characterized by heresy.

In my opinion, the key heresy is one of the key issues of the "Reformation," [i]sola scriptura[/i], a teaching that explicitly states that the Holy Scriptures are the only acceptable source for Christian doctrines. The implicit statement also includes that tradition, in particular is not an acceptable source of Christian doctrine, and that the Scriptures do not have an infallible interpreter.

All the other heresies flow from taking the Scriptures out of their proper place, which is as understood by the Church in the context of Sacred Tradition.

Since Protestants (at least those who actually believe in something still) are quite used to disagreeing with each other, most understand fine the idea of contending someone holds false doctrine. In my personal experience (as a convert), the uninformed often see the term "heretic" as applying to someone who believes in doctrine so false they are no longer a Christian. That is not the correct definition, but keep it in mind. I think it is better to speak of "false doctrine," in my opinion.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1347023' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:33 AM']Protestantism is not heresy. Protestantism is a branch of Christianity. It is however, a branch inherently characterized by heresy.

In my opinion, the key heresy is one of the key issues of the "Reformation," [i]sola scriptura[/i], a teaching that explicitly states that the Holy Scriptures are the only acceptable source for Christian doctrines. The implicit statement also includes that tradition, in particular is not an acceptable source of Christian doctrine, and that the Scriptures do not have an infallible interpreter.

All the other heresies flow from taking the Scriptures out of their proper place, which is as understood by the Church in the context of Sacred Tradition.

Since Protestants (at least those who actually believe in something still) are quite used to disagreeing with each other, most understand fine the idea of contending someone holds false doctrine. In my personal experience (as a convert), the uninformed often see the term "heretic" as applying to someone who believes in doctrine so false they are no longer a Christian. That is not the correct definition, but keep it in mind. I think it is better to speak of "false doctrine," in my opinion.[/quote]

There are no branches of Christianity. There is only one Christianity which is the Holy Catholic Church.

[tojo]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1347038' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:27 AM']There are no branches of Christianity. There is only one Christianity which is the Holy Catholic Church.[/quote]

I love how you always refuse to even try to understand what people are trying to say. If I had kept that attitude up I would have never become Catholic, I would've been too busy criticizing my misinterpretation of Catholicism.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BrotherStephenFrancis' post='1346958' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:35 AM']Hi all... new here, and surprisingly, a paid staff member at a Prot church, so my answer might shock you.

Is Protestantism heresy?

Do you have a brother?
Did your brother ever make you mad? That's one thing.
Did your brother ever say things he didn't mean in anger? Again, another thing.

Did your brother ever get so mad that he left the house (after tearing it apart) and went to live on his own, publishing paper after paper and book after book calling your Mother a whore?

Didn't think so.

Protestantism is heresy. Schism, rebellion, lunacy and straight-up heresy.[/quote]

Hmm... I grew up Protestant, and never was I taught that Mary slept around with a lot of men for money.

What I think is funny is how much disagreement there is on this question when the Catechism provides all the answer we need.

Edited August 2, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1347483' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:29 PM']I love how you always refuse to even try to understand what people are trying to say. If I had kept that attitude up I would have never become Catholic, I would've been too busy criticizing my misinterpretation of Catholicism.[/quote]

I understood what you were saying. I was just correcting one incorrect thing you said. Sorry if it came off as rude or uncharitable.

[tojo]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1347533' date='Aug 2 2007, 03:58 PM']I understood what you were saying. I was just correcting one incorrect thing you said. Sorry if it came off as rude or uncharitable.[/quote]

Okay.

If it makes you feel better, I thought to myself "a branch that fell off the tree" as I wrote it.

[Resurrexi]

That makes things a lot clearer

[WillT]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1347520' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:47 PM']Hmm... I grew up Protestant, and never was I taught that Mary slept around with a lot of men for money.

What I think is funny is how much disagreement there is on this question when the Catechism provides all the answer we need.[/quote]
I think he was reffering to the protestants who call the Catholic Church the "Whore of Babylon", not to Mary.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='WillT' post='1347654' date='Aug 2 2007, 06:21 PM']I think he was reffering to the protestants who call the Catholic Church the "Whore of Babylon", not to Mary.[/quote]

They're a very small minority of all Protestants. I figured he felt offended by the common Protestant belief that Mary had children with Joseph after Jesus, but that wouldn't make her a whore.

All we need to do is turn to the Catechism (or even the Council of Trent) and find that faith in Christ and Baptism are the foundations of salvation, both of which are works of God's grace. Technically, it may be correct to identify some Protestant beliefs as heretical, but it doesn't mean they are over there calling the Catholic Church a whore or whatever. Fact is, the vast majority of Protestants know Catholics are fellow Christians.

The other day Catholic Answers sent me some letter begging for money because Catholic soldiers are allegedly being converted by Jack Chick tracks. While it made for a good laugh, I'm sure that letter only confirmed the view in the minds of other Catholics that Protestants are a bunch of Jack Chicks, meanwhile the only time I've even seen a Jack Chick track (besides looking up his site on the Internet) was with some Baptist friends who were making fun of it. It had some schoolkids in it and they were referring to their Pope-following friend as a "Catlick".

Edited August 3, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[tojo]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1348533' date='Aug 3 2007, 11:20 AM']The other day Catholic Answers sent me some letter begging for money because Catholic soldiers are allegedly being converted by Jack Chick tracks. While it made for a good laugh, I'm sure that letter only confirmed the view in the minds of other Catholics that Protestants are a bunch of Jack Chicks, meanwhile the only time I've even seen a Jack Chick track (besides looking up his site on the Internet) was with some Baptist friends who were making fun of it. It had some schoolkids in it and they were referring to their Pope-following friend as a "Catlick". [/quote]

Dude, you don't know the right (actually, wrong) kind of Protestants. I've met plenty Catholic-haters. I've also meant plenty of others who don't hate Catholics, and are so kind as to grant that maybe, just maybe, some of us might go to Heaven, maybe.