Did God Know When He Created Satan He Would Rebel ?

[Guest]

i dunno if this will really turn out as a debate.....i guess im just poseing the question now......

[T-Bone _]

Yes. He also knew that Adam would choose the apple over His love.

[Guest]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1326415' date='Jul 12 2007, 10:49 PM']Yes. He also knew that Adam would choose the apple over His love.[/quote]


so why did he create satan if he knew he would rebell ??

[Aloysius]

he didn't create satan so that he would rebel, he created him as a great angel. his goodness demanded that in making something so good, to not only make it good but create an even more profoundly mysterious thing in creating freedom for that creature. that was the marvelous good that will never be overshadowed by any evil satan or any other creature ever does: that God created freedom. of course, He lovingly reminds us that the choice towards evil is a choice towards being slaves to sin, but it's still a choice.

if God had not created this freedom, he would not have created something truly good when creating all the angels. he had to create something with the potentiality for great evil for it to be the greatest good He could create.

had he simply not created those angels who used that freedom to rebel, he would not have actually created freedom.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1326587' date='Jul 13 2007, 12:47 AM']he didn't create satan so that he would rebel, he created him as a great angel. his goodness demanded that in making something so good, to not only make it good but create an even more profoundly mysterious thing in creating freedom for that creature. that was the marvelous good that will never be overshadowed by any evil satan or any other creature ever does: that God created freedom. of course, He lovingly reminds us that the choice towards evil is a choice towards being slaves to sin, but it's still a choice.

if God had not created this freedom, he would not have created something truly good when creating all the angels. he had to create something with the potentiality for great evil for it to be the greatest good He could create.

had he simply not created those angels who used that freedom to rebel, he would not have actually created freedom.[/quote]


Aloysius, wuts up man ?? great answer i agree with it and accept it....not to question God but for debate purposes.....

you said

" if God had not created this freedom, he would not have created something truly good when creating all the angels. he had to create something with the potentiality for great evil for it to be the greatest good He could create.

So did God know that there was only a potential for satan to rebell and cause all the misery and heartache ?? Or did he know for sure this would happen........and if he did know for sure why not create satan to begin with but still allow everything else that he knew was good to be created and have free will ???

Is there a chance that God was not sure if satan would rebell or not ??

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0507qq.asp"]Q: Why did God create Satan, knowing what he’d do?[/url]

A: That same question could be applied to any sinner: Why did God create any of us, knowing what we would do? God creates as an act of love. He gives us free will as an act of love because he desires our free choice to love him.

God created the archangel Lucifer, just as he created the other archangels and angels. God allowed Lucifer to reject him because he gave the angels free will. But God also knew that, as terrible as the evil wreaked by Satan was, he could still bring good from it.

The Catechism states that the devil’s action in the world "is permitted by divine providence, which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but ‘we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him’ (Rom. 8:28)" (CCC 395).

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1326592' date='Jul 13 2007, 01:24 AM'][url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0507qq.asp"]Q: Why did God create Satan, knowing what he’d do?[/url]

A: That same question could be applied to any sinner: Why did God create any of us, knowing what we would do? God creates as an act of love. He gives us free will as an act of love because he desires our free choice to love him.

God created the archangel Lucifer, just as he created the other archangels and angels. God allowed Lucifer to reject him because he gave the angels free will. But God also knew that, as terrible as the evil wreaked by Satan was, he could still bring good from it.

The Catechism states that the devil’s action in the world "is permitted by divine providence, which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but ‘we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him’ (Rom. 8:28)" (CCC 395).[/quote]


well put
its just hard to imagine thought that God being all loveing and all merciful ; that one of his creatures that was closest to him would turn on him to this degree and casue this much pain around the world......it just dont make sence......but i aguree that in everything God works for good with those who love him.........it just really really sad......

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1326592' date='Jul 13 2007, 01:24 AM'][url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0507qq.asp"]Q: Why did God create Satan, knowing what he’d do?[/url]

A: That same question could be applied to any sinner: Why did God create any of us, knowing what we would do? God creates as an act of love. He gives us free will as an act of love because he desires our free choice to love him.[/quote]


well adam and eve didnt stand a chance...thats another question i have...why was the devil even permitted to tempt adam and eve ?? couldnt they have had freewill without ever haveing to face the devils temptations ?? but thats no question to answer here...only God and the saints know the answer to that...i pray one day to know........God is 100 % love though for sure....and Im blessed to know him and have a relationship with him....Godbless

Edited July 13, 2007 by Guest

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.hli.org/sl_qa_archives_angels_demons.html#questin2"]2. Satan in the Garden of Eden
Q: Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden? Once he was thrown into Hell by St. Michael, why was he allowed more influence? (Sent by R.W. from WI)[/url]

A: It is easier to start with the last question first and work backward. As a matter of fact the account that you refer to of the expulsion of the devil by St. Michael (Rev 12:7-8) makes it clear that what Michael accomplishes is only an expulsion from heaven and not a casting down to hell. There is a big difference. Michael’s job was to exorcise the Evil One’s vile presence from the dwelling of Almighty God and purify the heavenly places of anything unclean (see Rev 21:27).

The Book of Revelation goes on to say that the place where Satan and his minions were thrust down to was in fact earth. Earth is the “battlefield” between heaven and hell. Verse 9 of chapter 12 states that clearly: “The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him.” How does the author of Revelation react at the thought of this fearsome prospect for humanity? “But woe to you earth and sea, for the devil has come down upon you. His fury knows no limits, for he knows his time is short.” (Rev 12:12) That is a frightening reality indeed. But since Satan cannot destroy God, and he was proven less powerful than God’s faithful angels, he attacks “those who keep the commandments of God and give witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 12:17)

The first part of the question thus answers itself. The devil is able to be in the Garden of Eden because his new place of haunting is the earth and as a free being he was like all the other animals that God created and not excluded from the Garden of Eden. Originally, there was no fiery Seraphim set at the gates of the Garden of Eden to keep anyone out as was the case after the Fall of Adam and Eve. One gets the impression, however, that God allowed the devil to enter there with the larger purpose of testing our first parents’ obedience to the limits He had placed upon them as creatures. God foreknew that Adam and Eve would fail the test, but His permissive will had determined that the devil and his temptations would be instruments of testing for strengthening the love and freedom of his people.

As far as “more influence” of the devil goes, we have to recognize that all creatures have limits including Satan, and the limits that God set on Satan’s destructive power are the only reason why Satan can tempt us but not destroy us outright. It is deeply galling to the former Seraphim angel that he is now strictly limited in how he uses his powers against God’s children. It’s even more galling to him that God uses him so to speak to sanctify the faithful. In other words, the only influence the devil has on us is the influence we freely allow him to have over us.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1326602' date='Jul 13 2007, 01:44 AM'][url="http://www.hli.org/sl_qa_archives_angels_demons.html#questi"]2. Satan in the Garden of Eden
Q: Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden? Once he was thrown into Hell by St. Michael, why was he allowed more influence? (Sent by R.W. from WI)[/url]

A: It is easier to start with the last question first and work backward. As a matter of fact the account that you refer to of the expulsion of the devil by St. Michael (Rev 12:7-8) makes it clear that what Michael accomplishes is only an expulsion from heaven and not a casting down to hell. There is a big difference. Michael’s job was to exorcise the Evil One’s vile presence from the dwelling of Almighty God and purify the heavenly places of anything unclean (see Rev 21:27).

The Book of Revelation goes on to say that the place where Satan and his minions were thrust down to was in fact earth. Earth is the “battlefield” between heaven and hell. Verse 9 of chapter 12 states that clearly: “The huge dragon, the ancient serpent known as the devil or Satan, the seducer of the whole world, was driven out; he was hurled down to earth and his minions with him.” How does the author of Revelation react at the thought of this fearsome prospect for humanity? “But woe to you earth and sea, for the devil has come down upon you. His fury knows no limits, for he knows his time is short.” (Rev 12:12) That is a frightening reality indeed. But since Satan cannot destroy God, and he was proven less powerful than God’s faithful angels, he attacks “those who keep the commandments of God and give witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 12:17)

The first part of the question thus answers itself. The devil is able to be in the Garden of Eden because his new place of haunting is the earth and as a free being he was like all the other animals that God created and not excluded from the Garden of Eden. Originally, there was no fiery Seraphim set at the gates of the Garden of Eden to keep anyone out as was the case after the Fall of Adam and Eve. One gets the impression, however, that God allowed the devil to enter there with the larger purpose of testing our first parents’ obedience to the limits He had placed upon them as creatures. God foreknew that Adam and Eve would fail the test, but His permissive will had determined that the devil and his temptations would be instruments of testing for strengthening the love and freedom of his people.

As far as “more influence” of the devil goes, we have to recognize that all creatures have limits including Satan, and the limits that God set on Satan’s destructive power are the only reason why Satan can tempt us but not destroy us outright. It is deeply galling to the former Seraphim angel that he is now strictly limited in how he uses his powers against God’s children. It’s even more galling to him that God uses him so to speak to sanctify the faithful. In other words, the only influence the devil has on us is the influence we freely allow him to have over us.[/quote]

thanks for that bro...that is good stuff......
i guess its selfish of me to think that God would just say, "hey i know that these humans im about to create are good so i will not even put them through the test or tribulations of liveing life without me and satan in it.......and as a result not haveing to send my son to die for their sins which is good becuz he doesnt deserve to.......although i guess we as humans must prove worthy to God to be included in his love for eternity..........so it comes back to selfishness with me, something i need to work on....becuz i know its a work of the flesh.....

Edited July 13, 2007 by Guest

[Guest]

but i guess that brings the question...if humans were never tested and faced with sin through satan.....would some humans then introduce sin and therefore play the same role satan played as arch angel ?? so mabey humans had to be tested becuz God knew some of them would rebell and hate him.......but i wonder is it possible to hate God without satan manipulateing you to do it ??

[KnightofChrist]

Your not clear... I dont understand...

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1326608' date='Jul 13 2007, 02:13 AM']Your not clear... I dont understand...[/quote]


ya its late lol im confuseing myself

i apprecaite your answers they were helpfull

i guess i just dont see how satan could be Gods favorite and most powerfull angel when he knew what he would do all along......but when i pose that question im questioning God which is not my goal and i know that it grieves God because then it appears as if im loseing trust.....which im not......I know God is good and God is love.......But God in the old testement was very stern and very violent with people he was angry with or did not approve of......and in revelations God is very violent and very maliant........and im not saying I have a problem with that....I am glad to have a loveing God that protects his children.....I just wonder why somtimes his children that love him have to suffer because of an angel that hated him although God knew all along this angel would hate him, yet he created him and he was Gods favorite angel.......thats all lol im glad for debate tables like this though....becuz i can ponder these thoughts and discuss them and it isnt sinfull.....which is a blessing....


and what i was sayen earlier........mabey humans are really bad to.....mabey even if satan hadnt have been there to tempt adam and eve in the garden......mabey adam and eve would have sinned anyhow......

Edited July 13, 2007 by Guest

[Bonbon]

God gave the Angels and man free will. I thought God couldn't touch free will. HE can help you choice but it is your choice...right?


Also not really in the debate, but how come God can't just...snap his fingur and make the devil non existent?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Cardinals Flower' post='1326681' date='Jul 13 2007, 09:42 AM']God gave the Angels and man free will. I thought God couldn't touch free will. HE can help you choice but it is your choice...right?
Also not really in the debate, but how come God can't just...snap his fingur and make the devil non existent?[/quote]
WEll of course he could have, but then satan would have been a robot, not a free spirit. God wants all of us to love him FREELY, even Satan. We are luckier than the angels, their choices were irrevocable, ours until we die are not.

[Bonbon]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1326763' date='Jul 13 2007, 07:58 AM']WEll of course he could have, but then satan would have been a robot, not a free spirit. God wants all of us to love him FREELY, even Satan. We are luckier than the angels, their choices were irrevocable, ours until we die are not.[/quote]
So doesn't that mean God didn't know whether or not Adam would eat the apple? Like he knew that this was going to come up but he didn't know which way adam would choose. Same for satan?

[T-Bone _]

God knew what would happen. God let it happen. Otherwise there'd be no free will.

[Bonbon]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1326807' date='Jul 13 2007, 08:31 AM']God knew what would happen. God let it happen. Otherwise there'd be no free will.[/quote]
But if God already knew what that it would happen whats the point of free will. Its like saying " Hey you have free will, but this is exactly what will happen so your pretty much are smell of elderberries with it."

I always thought that there are paths with side roads (not all side roads are bad bad) that God lays out for us. Him knowing where each path leads with U-turns down the bad roads, aka confession. But he doesn't know which path you'll choose.

[T-Bone _]

You still have free-will, even if God knows what you'll do. He doesn't control the decision--you do.

[kujo]

[quote name='Cardinals Flower' post='1326825' date='Jul 13 2007, 11:52 AM']But if God already knew what that it would happen whats the point of free will. Its like saying " Hey you have free will, but this is exactly what will happen so your pretty much are smell of elderberries with it."

I always thought that there are paths with side roads (not all side roads are bad bad) that God lays out for us. Him knowing where each path leads with U-turns down the bad roads, aka confession. But he doesn't know which path you'll choose.[/quote]

My mother explained the issue of free will like this:

When I was little, I LOVED chocolate pudding...heck I still do. On the other hand, there is nothing I despise more than pickles. They are gross and evil and nasty. So, suppose I opened the fridge and there was nothing there except a jar of pickles and a Snack Pack. My mother simply [i]knows[/i] that I am going to choose the pudding. It doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to choose the pickles; rather, it means that my mother knows exactly what I'm going to choose because she knows [b]me.[/b]

In a similar way, God knows what we will choose, only His vision is even greater because He's God and knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we will choose because, to God, time isn't linear, but rather multi-dimensional.