Did God Know When He Created Satan He Would Rebel ?

[Bonbon]

[quote name='kujo' post='1327175' date='Jul 13 2007, 12:29 PM']My mother explained the issue of free will like this:

When I was little, I LOVED chocolate pudding...heck I still do. On the other hand, there is nothing I despise more than pickles. They are gross and evil and nasty. So, suppose I opened the fridge and there was nothing there except a jar of pickles and a Snack Pack. My mother simply [i]knows[/i] that I am going to choose the pudding. It doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to choose the pickles; rather, it means that my mother knows exactly what I'm going to choose because she knows [b]me.[/b]

In a similar way, God knows what we will choose, only His vision is even greater because He's God and knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we will choose because, to God, time isn't linear, but rather multi-dimensional.[/quote]

So why do we pray to God to help us choose the [b]right[/b] thing. If he already knows what we will choose? Is it that everytime we pray to do the right thing, when we origanlly were gonna do the wrong thing, God will change the furture? Or were we always going to do the rigth thing and we just had doubt? But then there are time when we do do the wrong thing even though we prayed for the right thing. It doesn't make sence. why would God make us do the wrong thing..er not make us but lets us. It almost like whats the point of praying if no matter what we do God already knows the out come.

Like a man you commits suicide. Did God all along know he was going too? Or a man who denys God? Did God know all along that he would deny him. If so why create him? Both when they die go to hell. Yes the man has free will to deny him, but God knew from birth what his choice would be? Or is it that God only knows what we'll choose when the choice is put infront of us?

This is truely one point I've never understood

[T-Bone _]

Don't " "

Free will is a hard concept to wrap your brain around. (Personally, it gives me a headache.)

[Guest]

[quote name='kujo' post='1327175' date='Jul 13 2007, 01:29 PM']My mother explained the issue of free will like this:

When I was little, I LOVED chocolate pudding...heck I still do. On the other hand, there is nothing I despise more than pickles. They are gross and evil and nasty. So, suppose I opened the fridge and there was nothing there except a jar of pickles and a Snack Pack. My mother simply [i]knows[/i] that I am going to choose the pudding. It doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to choose the pickles; rather, it means that my mother knows exactly what I'm going to choose because she knows [b]me.[/b]

In a similar way, God knows what we will choose, only His vision is even greater because He's God and knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we will choose because, to God, time isn't linear, but rather multi-dimensional.[/quote]


I like that parrable

[kujo]

[quote name='Cardinals Flower' post='1327196' date='Jul 13 2007, 03:58 PM']So why do we pray to God to help us choose the [b]right[/b] thing. If he already knows what we will choose? Is it that everytime we pray to do the right thing, when we origanlly were gonna do the wrong thing, God will change the furture? Or were we always going to do the rigth thing and we just had doubt? But then there are time when we do do the wrong thing even though we prayed for the right thing. It doesn't make sence. why would God make us do the wrong thing..er not make us but lets us. It almost like whats the point of praying if no matter what we do God already knows the out come.

Like a man you commits suicide. Did God all along know he was going too? Or a man who denys God? Did God know all along that he would deny him. If so why create him? Both when they die go to hell. Yes the man has free will to deny him, but God knew from birth what his choice would be? Or is it that God only knows what we'll choose when the choice is put infront of us?

This is truely one point I've never understood [/quote]

We pray for God to show us the right thing do to because, as children of God, we want to do His will. Further, as our Father, God only desires what is best for us, not only in the "now," but in the future as well. This is why when the Lord "takes," we must have the faith to know that, ultimately, He will "give." It's all about Jeremiah 29:11, baby. He has nothing but our best interests at heart. If I could go back to the analogy I posted before, it can be stated that pickles are probably healthier than chocolate pudding. Perhaps my mom would prefer that I eat the pickles for their nutritional benefits because, longterm, that is what's best for me. And, if I had asked her what she thought I should eat, that's probably what she'd tell me. But, ultimately, the decision would lie with me and she would love me regardless.

I feel your pain, brother. The notion that Our Loving Father allows us to be hurt by sin is hard to fathom. We must realize, though, that God doesn't want us to say/do what He wants out of obligation. If He wanted that, he'd make us like the main character of the movie [u]A.I[/u]., who was a robotic-child who was programmed to be "ideal," to always be a "good boy." He had no free will, and thus no capacity to TRULY love. God gave us free will so that we can FREELY fall in love with Him and so that we can FREELY ask for His will to be done in our life. This is what He wants for us; however, like a good parent, God never forces Himself on us, and allows us to put our hand on the stove, to burn ourself, so that we can ultimately accept His will for us.

It's a confusing concept man. But don't be disheartened. Always remember the words God spoke in this passage from the Book of Jeremiah:

"For I know well the plans I have in mind for you, says the LORD, plans for your welfare, not for woe! Plans to give you a future full of hope." (29:11)

Goodness and hope. That is what God wants for us.

Peace.

Edited July 13, 2007 by kujo

[kujo]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1327362' date='Jul 13 2007, 06:13 PM']I like that parrable [/quote]

Nothing like some motherly wisdom, right?

[Guest]

[quote name='kujo' post='1327376' date='Jul 13 2007, 04:32 PM']Nothing like some motherly wisdom, right?[/quote]

for sure

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kujo' post='1327175' date='Jul 13 2007, 03:29 PM']My mother explained the issue of free will like this:

When I was little, I LOVED chocolate pudding...heck I still do. On the other hand, there is nothing I despise more than pickles. They are gross and evil and nasty. So, suppose I opened the fridge and there was nothing there except a jar of pickles and a Snack Pack. My mother simply [i]knows[/i] that I am going to choose the pudding. It doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to choose the pickles; rather, it means that my mother knows exactly what I'm going to choose because she knows [b]me.[/b]

In a similar way, God knows what we will choose, only His vision is even greater because He's God and knows EVERYTHING. He knows what we will choose because, to God, time isn't linear, but rather multi-dimensional.[/quote]
I was gonna respond to this excellent story





but instead I went for some pudding....

[kujo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1327425' date='Jul 13 2007, 07:36 PM']I was gonna respond to this excellent story
but instead I went for some pudding....[/quote]

Some would argue that enjoying the awesomeness of chocolate pudding is a much better use of your time than participating on the Phorum...

The good thing about the advent of the Go-gurt is that there is a pudding equivalent which allows you to do both at the same time...

[img]http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/2328/untitledsk6.jpg[/img]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1327425' date='Jul 13 2007, 05:36 PM']I was gonna respond to this excellent story
but instead I went for some pudding....[/quote]
pudding? hmm... I wonder if my amazingly loving wife will make me some?..

[KnightofChrist]

I was thinking since last night on this... in prayer... and I came to this thought someone back me up or show me where I'm wrong... But once God conceived the thought of Luficer, He "had to" for the lack of a better word create him. This I'm thinking is something like a mother who has a child conceived in her womb, while still not born into the world outside it is wrong to abort the child, even if she thinks the child will be mentally handicap, or even a bad person. While it is a mystery, God's thought is on a much higher level than human thought and understanding, but once God conceived the thought of Luficer in His Almighty Mind, it was only right to create Luficer even knowing what he would do. We can not do evil so good can come from it. We can not punish someone for a crime they have not yet commented. Nor can God. Luficer, had the possibility of doing what was right, he had freewill God gave him a chance and he blew it.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1327442' date='Jul 13 2007, 08:05 PM']I was thinking since last night on this... in prayer... and I came to this thought someone back me up or show me where I'm wrong... But once God conceived the thought of Luficer, He "had to" for the lack of a better word create him. This I'm thinking is something like a mother who has a child conceived in her womb, while still not born into the world outside it is wrong to abort the child, even if she thinks the child will be mentally handicap, or even a bad person. While it is a mystery, God's thought is on a much higher level than human thought and understanding, but once God conceived the thought of Luficer in His Almighty Mind, it was only right to create Luficer even knowing what he would do. We can not do evil so good can come from it. We can not punish someone for a crime they have not yet commented. Nor can God. Luficer, had the possibility of doing what was right, he had freewill God gave him a chance and he blew it.[/quote]

I don't know if this is kosher. It doesn't seem right....I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's right.

[KnightofChrist]

You may be right... idk. I was just thinking of God sitting and thinking "I will create an arch Angel and name him Luficer, no wait he will turn against me so I will not create him." Once the thought was in his head with the understanding this angel would have freewill the possibility to do good, would'nt be a prejudgement by God not to create or allow the angel to exist? We're judge on our thoughts and deeds we actually comment are we not? But I would think if God chose not to bring Luficer in to existence because of thoughts and deeds of Luficer, that Luficer had not actually commented yet would that be prejudgment? Somehow? Can God prejudge?

Edited July 13, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1327448' date='Jul 13 2007, 08:19 PM']You may be right... idk. I was just thinking of God sitting and thinking "I will create an arch Angel and name him Luficer, no wait he will turn against me so I will not create him." Once the thought was in his head with the understanding this angel would have freewill the possibility to do good. We're judge on our thoughts and deeds we actually comment are we not? But I would think if God chose not to bring Luficer in to existence because of thoughts and deeds of Luficer, that Luficer had not actually commented yet would that be prejudgment? Somehow? Can God prejudge?[/quote]

I don't think God has moral dilemnas. And I don't think He [i]prejudges[/i] because, with God, there is no time. Thus, there can't be a "pre" or a "post," just a judgement.

He is.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1327442' date='Jul 13 2007, 06:05 PM']I was thinking since last night on this... in prayer... and I came to this thought someone back me up or show me where I'm wrong... But once God conceived the thought of Luficer, He "had to" for the lack of a better word create him. This I'm thinking is something like a mother who has a child conceived in her womb, while still not born into the world outside it is wrong to abort the child, even if she thinks the child will be mentally handicap, or even a bad person. While it is a mystery, God's thought is on a much higher level than human thought and understanding, but once God conceived the thought of Luficer in His Almighty Mind, it was only right to create Luficer even knowing what he would do. We can not do evil so good can come from it. We can not punish someone for a crime they have not yet commented. Nor can God. Luficer, had the possibility of doing what was right, he had freewill God gave him a chance and he blew it.[/quote]
Based on Catholic dogma there are several things that we must affirm.

1. God has absolute foreknowledge of the free acts of rational creatures. Thus the fall of Satan was foreseen (foreknown rather).
2. God's creation is a perfectly and indeed radically free act of God and therefore the scenario involving some sort of compulsion is not fitting.
3. God's creation expresses His perfect wisdom and goodness and no defect, injustice or evil can be attributed to God in His creative act (or in any sense period).
4. To put it in more modern terms God has endowed all rational creatures with a capacity for self-determination and the moral evil (and fall) of the reprobate is their own responsibility and cannot be attributed to a defect in God's will.

If we say much more beyond this and we are speculating.

I hope this helps.

[kujo]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1327454' date='Jul 13 2007, 08:32 PM']Based on Catholic dogma there are several things that we must affirm.

1. God has absolute foreknowledge of the free acts of rational creatures. Thus the fall of Satan was foreseen.
2. God's creation is a perfectly and indeed radically free act of God and therefore the scenario involving some sort of compulsion is not fitting.
3. God's creation expresses His perfect wisdom and goodness and no defect, injustice or evil can be attributed to God in His creative act (or in any sense period).
4. To put it in more modern terms God has endowed all rational creatures with a capacity for self-determination and the moral evil (and fall) of the reprobate is their own responsibility and cannot be attributed to a defect in God's will.

If we say much more beyond this and we are speculating.

I hope this helps.[/quote]

Word!

[cmotherofpirl]

God is also not in time as we are. All time is present to Him, all the time.

[KnightofChrist]

Ok super... just a thought it was...

Edited July 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[carrdero]

After reading some of these answers I was wondering what free will God had given the living creatures during the flood of Noah, the Canaanites that he instructed to be killed and the residents of Sodomn and Gomorrah that were destroyed and why God would infer death for these people but let the ever rebeliious and potentially dangerous Satan to still survive? Favoritism perhaps?

Edited July 14, 2007 by carrdero

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1328112' date='Jul 14 2007, 06:20 AM']After reading some of these answers I was wondering what free will God had given the living creatures during the flood of Noah, the Canaanites that he instructed to be killed and the residents of Sodomn and Gomorrah that were destroyed and why God would infer death for these people but let the ever rebeliious and potentially dangerous Satan to still survive? Favoritism perhaps?[/quote]

God cannot undo creation. If he were to actually destroy Satan (or any single aspect of creation), creation as a whole would cease to exist.

However, if God so chooses, he can punish evil doers.

[infinitelord1]

I am going to start a different topic that will have relevance to this one...its going to be called "Why did God create?"