Do Animals Have Souls At All?

[Galloglasses]

All dogs go to Heaven

If my puppies aren't up there I swear...

Just kidding.

I'm a fan of the idea that animals have souls, they are capable of some, albeit very primitive, level of thought. St.Francis of Assisi loved animals so much, he could command them, and they would obey. What makes us different from animals is that God created us especially in His image and likeness, and he breathed our souls into us. Animals I believe, he would give souls but of a much lesser degree.

Ok, lets think about this, because my arguement flows better in my head then it does on paper. Do angels have souls? The obvious answer is yes because they more or less [i]are[/i] souls, but did God create them equal to our souls? No, are they to a lesser or greater degree? I can't say, i'm not that intelligent. God created animals, would it not be reasonable that they have souls? If all of God's creatures in Heaven have souls? My answer would be yes, but that the souls of animals would be much less valuable then ours. For we "are worht more then many sparrows", the indication is that sparrows, animals, ARE worth something, but we are worth more. Hence I think animals have souls but they are nowhere near as valueable as ours.

Have you looked at dogs? They are capable of a small level of personality, laziness, energeticness, viciousness. Granted, these traits are dependent on their masters but their individuality is clear, at least to me. Don't worry, i'm not one of these new agey guys, or eco-warrior freak, I would sooner have all the animals on earth put to death if it meant saving a human life, but my arguement is they have value, otherwise God would not put us as stewards over them.

Trees and plants? Highly argueable, but no, I do not believe so. Because unlike us, creatures, plants are [i]creations[/i]. They are things, living things, but things none the less, whereas we and animals are beings. Sides, even if they did have souls they would be worth EVEN less then the animals that eat them.

My idea anyway, feel free to tear away at it.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Galloglasses

[carrdero]

The only thing I could contest is your perception and definition of the word "worth".

Edited April 19, 2008 by carrdero

[SaintOfVirtue]

Okay, several misconceptions and sorry, Galloglasses, but I'm using your post as an example for the basis of my argument.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']All dogs go to Heaven

If my puppies aren't up there I swear...

Just kidding.[/quote]

For the record I have a dog, have had a hamster, and raise Betta fish. I am not an eco-freak. I will lay down the facts as they were taught to me. It is important to first understand what is meant by a soul. by the soul we referr to the ability to reason between what is right and wrong, and what is good and evil. Animals do not possess this ability and never will no matter how much scientists try to teach them, animals operate on instinct and do not possess free will.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']I'm a fan of the idea that animals have souls, they are capable of some, albeit very primitive, level of thought. St.Francis of Assisi loved animals so much, he could command them, and they would obey. What makes us different from animals is that God created us especially in His image and likeness, and he breathed our souls into us. Animals I believe, he would give souls but of a much lesser degree.[/quote]

There are a few key errors in this part. The first is the part about Saint Francis; it was not his love of animals, but his love of God. Because he loved God so much God gave him the special gift of being able to communicate with animals. Secondly our souls were created in the image and likeness of God not our bodies.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']Ok, lets think about this, because my arguement flows better in my head then it does on paper. Do angels have souls? The obvious answer is yes because they more or less [i]are[/i] souls, but did God create them equal to our souls? No, are they to a lesser or greater degree? I can't say, i'm not that intelligent.[/quote]

We are not equal to the angels; they are greater than us being as they already reside in the magnificent glory of God.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']God created animals, would it not be reasonable that they have souls? If all of God's creatures in Heaven have souls? My answer would be yes, but that the souls of animals would be much less valuable then ours. For we "are worht more then many sparrows", the indication is that sparrows, animals, ARE worth something, but we are worth more. Hence I think animals have souls but they are nowhere near as valueable as ours.[/quote]

Animals do have worth: we need them for food, for clothes, for balance, and for companionship and enjoyment. this is the type of worth meant in the passage you quote.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']Have you looked at dogs? They are capable of a small level of personality, laziness, energeticness, viciousness. Granted, these traits are dependent on their masters but their individuality is clear, at least to me. Don't worry, i'm not one of these new agey guys, or eco-warrior freak, I would sooner have all the animals on earth put to death if it meant saving a human life, but my arguement is they have value, otherwise God would not put us as stewards over them.[/quote]

I have a dog and have witnessed first hand what you describe, but is it the essence of a soul. No (I know that sounds cruel but its true). Does not having a soul mean they won't be in heaven with us? No, I think all our beloved animals will be with us in heaven but I do not believe it to be because of a soul.
We are stewards over the animals to take care of them in this world. If they had souls, they would answer to God not us because a soul would require more to sustain it than we are capable of offering.

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502938' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:36 PM']Trees and plants? Highly argueable, but no, I do not believe so. Because unlike us, creatures, plants are [i]creations[/i]. They are things, living things, but things none the less, whereas we and animals are beings. Sides, even if they did have souls they would be worth EVEN less then the animals that eat them.

My idea anyway, feel free to tear away at it.[/quote]

Ah, but you forget: even animals eat one another. Does that mean one animal is a lesser species than the other? No each and every species has its job, and each is needed to do that job.

I was unable to go as in depth as I would have liked but that's that. Also to assume other animals and plants have souls and the gift of reasoning would be to give the evolutionists and big bang theory propagators more ammo for there gun.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' post='1503888' date='Apr 20 2008, 12:40 AM']Okay, several misconceptions and sorry, Galloglasses, but I'm using your post as an example for the basis of my argument.
For the record I have a dog, have had a hamster, and raise Betta fish. I am not an eco-freak. I will lay down the facts as they were taught to me. It is important to first understand what is meant by a soul. by the soul we referr to the ability to reason between what is right and wrong, and what is good and evil. Animals do not possess this ability and never will no matter how much scientists try to teach them, animals operate on instinct and do not possess free will.[/quote]

There are many people who also do not fall under that definition of a soul. Yet, let us consider three things, one, animals do indeed have a lower form of cognitive existence, nothing in our universe goes from existence to pure non-existence.

Second, consider Genesis, before the fall of man. That terrestrial paradise was heaven on earth, a paradise where both God, man and beast walked and lived peacefully, where the wolf would lay with the sheep. Man could have lived forever in this paradise, and indeed would not also the beasts? Would the beast have died as man lived on in this Garden of God, this paradise? Doubtful, after all, it was only after the fall of man that death was introduce into the world, where beast became wild. It would seem the original plan was to have eternal life for both man and beast. How could a non-eternal soul live in Paradise with eternal man, knowing that death was only the cause of the sin of man?

Third, at the end of time the old heaven and the old earth will be done away with, and heaven and earth will effectively become one, God will dwell here, the wolf will again lay with the sheep, and where death and sadness will not exist. We know from Genesis that the beast indeed lived in paradise/heaven on earth before, and we know from prophesy that they will be again, in the new paradise. Why not heaven now?


[quote]Isaiah 11:6-10

6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them. 7 The calf and the bear shall feed: their young ones shall rest together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp: and the weaned child shall thrust his hand into the den of the basilisk. 9 They shall not hurt, nor shall they kill in all my holy mountain, for the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the covering waters of the sea. 10 In that day the root of Jesse, who standeth for an ensign of the people, him the Gentiles shall beseech, and his sepulchre shall be glorious.[/quote]

Edited April 20, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Galloglasses]

[quote]For the record I have a dog, have had a hamster, and raise Betta fish. I am not an eco-freak. I will lay down the facts as they were taught to me. It is important to first understand what is meant by a soul. by the soul we referr to the ability to reason between what is right and wrong, and what is good and evil. Animals do not possess this ability and never will no matter how much scientists try to teach them, animals operate on instinct and do not possess free will.[/quote]
You call a dog over to you, it looks at you, it either comes towards you, or it walks away. Yes they are hardwired to instinct, this is evident when you look at birds, but animals DO make choice based on some level of thought, and thought is the basis of reason. Case in point. A dog comes over to you, you slap it, the next day it sees you and you call it, it'll either try to bite you or go away. The dog reasoned you were untrustworthy. The fact that animals learn is proof they are capable of some degree of thought, but yes you do have a point, they are unable of distinguishing good from evil. But you forget, in Genisis HUMANITY was incapable of distinguishing good from evil UNTIL it ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, wether you take genisis literally, or figuratively, you cannot deny that Humans had their souls before they were capable of rational thought, why cannot animals?

[quote]There are a few key errors in this part. The first is the part about Saint Francis; it was not his love of animals, but his love of God. Because he loved God so much God gave him the special gift of being able to communicate with animals. Secondly our souls were created in the image and likeness of God not our bodies.
We are not equal to the angels; they are greater than us being as they already reside in the magnificent glory of God.[/quote]
Yes I made a poor choice of words, forgive me, I do that alot. Altough what you have just mentioned proves my point. St.Francis of Assisi, [i]communicated[/i] with the animals, he even told off a wolf to not go snarling about and damaging livestock. A wolf! And it obeyed. If as you say, animals are iincapable of reason on any level whatsoever, they would not have obeyed St.Francis, animals today would not be able to learn tricks. Also, nowhere did I suggest our bodies were made in the image of God. I was referring that our souls were most valueable BECAUSE we are made in the image and likeness of God.

[quote]Animals do have worth: we need them for food, for clothes, for balance, and for companionship and enjoyment. this is the type of worth meant in the passage you quote.[/quote]
Animals are to be treated wth respect and not to be used simply and for the sole purpose of manipulation by us. St.Francis of Assisi made that clear.

[quote]I have a dog and have witnessed first hand what you describe, but is it the essence of a soul. No (I know that sounds cruel but its true). Does not having a soul mean they won't be in heaven with us? No, I think all our beloved animals will be with us in heaven but I do not believe it to be because of a soul.
We are stewards over the animals to take care of them in this world. If they had souls, they would answer to God not us because a soul would require more to sustain it than we are capable of offering.[/quote]
Now here you are flawed, everything that is capable of a level of thought is capable of a small degree of reason. Case in point, an animal tastes mushy mud pie, it doesn't like the taste of mushy mud pie, hence it decides never to eat mushy mud pie ever again if it could. Nothing can get in the presence of God without purity in spirit, animals, due to the fact they are hardwired to instinct, do not have the same burdens and blessings as us humans due, henceforth they are innocent by virtue of being ignorent. They have value, their souls are not the same as ours, in any sense, but they have souls. For all God created was very good, we, humanity, just screwed up.

[quote]Ah, but you forget: even animals eat one another. Does that mean one animal is a lesser species than the other? No each and every species has its job, and each is needed to do that job.[/quote]
I was not judging the plants worth based on the fact they are eaten. I was basing their worth on wether they were creations or beings. I was stipulating a suggestion that if plants had souls, due to the fact that they are creations and not creatures, they are worth less then animals. Case in point, its better to burn every forest on Earth then to let animals die. My main arguement is that it is also better to kill all animals on earth if it meant saving humans. Hierarchy of value in my eyes, humanity being God's favourite Creation we are indeed worth more then the earth itself. But that doesn't mean everything else on earth is worth the same as eachother.

[quote]I was unable to go as in depth as I would have liked but that's that. Also to assume other animals and plants have souls and the gift of reasoning would be to give the evolutionists and big bang theory propagators more ammo for there gun.[/quote]
No it wouldn't, proving that anything has a soul, empirically or rationally, screws up the evoltionary arguement, at least the Darwinian model. Because if everything's an accident, nothing has a soul. Reasoning that anything has a soul, proves we are not accidents, because a soul, not being physical, transcends the Big Bang. If you or I could prove humanity has a soul to the scientific community, heads would roll, probably ours if a smear campaign goes against us.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Galloglasses

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1345522' date='Jul 31 2007, 06:57 PM']Please Debate. Do animals have souls? If they do is it a different kind? Where dose this put plants? Your ideas, thoughts, and church teahings, Please.[/quote]

Animals do have souls. As the Scripture say without the spirit there is no life.

The thought behind a "different kind" of soul comes from the idea that they do not have intelligence/higher thinking (see The Summa Theologica). As we now know there are animals that do have higher thinking abilities than previously thought... such as Chimps, and Gorillas who have learned sign language and communicate desires, wants, and compassion with humans. Also a side note the Summa brings up Plato and other philosophers which is totally irrelevant in determining the truth of soul.

The simple answer is that they do have souls. How different their soul is than ours is strictly speculation for there is no definite answer. If something cannot be answered with definite answers, then there is no real "debate" - only discussion not worth arguing about

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Holly3278]

Yes, I read somewhere that animals have what is called a material soul.

[Domine ut Videam]

In short, I taught this this summer. Here is the in-brif answer.

Human beings are created in the Image and Likeness of God.-Thus we have intellect and free will->thus we can sin.=Immortal Soul

Animals, which are lower on the scale of creation, do not have an intellect or free will->thus they cannot sin and have culpability or require salvation. Thus they have a mortal soul.

When humans die their body dies and the soul continues to exist

When animals die they completely die. Their body and souls cease to exist.


So it is not that God loves animals less, but that redemption is not needed if there is not an immortal soul. And just so you all know 3rd and 4th graders grasp and agree with this concept, so using the simple mind of a child is how i describe it.

[Selah]

Because souls are what gives life, I would say animals have souls, though they are different from ours.

That said, if they do not reach heaven, could they be taken somewhere else? If not, could God allow them to enter heaven should their owner ask? For example, I had a cat named Misty who died of a stomach tumor 3 years ago. She was very beloved around here. I have always asked God to allow her to go to heaven so I can see her when I finally die.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Selah

[princessgianna]

It all depends on how you define a soul.
I have always been taught that a soul is something that unites us with God that death can not part. A privilege that only man was given in the Garden of Eden.

[Winchester]

Animals have an animating spirit. If you're thinking of soulless creatures, you're thinking of lawyers.

[Selah]

[quote]Animals have an animating spirit. If you're thinking of soulless creatures, you're thinking of lawyers.[/quote]