Do Animals Have Souls At All?

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346031' date='Aug 1 2007, 01:13 AM']"Good and evil" judgments are human made concepts, not concerns to an eternal soul.[/quote]
Actually, they are only concerns to immortal spiritual beings, including humans with immortal souls.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346999' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:13 AM']No it doesn’t, does it. There is no point or karma system to my belief system. No physical entity is lowly, better, higher or more worthy than another.[/quote]
So apparently, not only are the Christians, Jews, and Muslims all wrong, the Hindus and Buddhists are wrong as well.

Seems Carrdero alone, in his near-infinite wisdom, possesses the truth in this matter.

[quote]Possibly for the same reason that we do not understand why people attend Barry Manilow concerts. Most likely it is for the experience.[/quote]
"Hey, I think I want to spend a lifetime living in a cat's anus!"

"Yeah, sounds fun; let's do it!"

[FattyBones]

Just for the record, I'm not implying that humans are equivalent to animals. Humans are special and set apart.

I'm saying animals can reason and make decisions. If a ball hits a wall and bounces, a dog can observe this and will wait for the ball next time it is thrown, instead of running up to the wall. I know this because I've played fetch with a dog.

That's called reasoning by induction.

Given a choice between obeying a command and stealing some food, a dog may do one or the other, obviousely he's making a decision -- based on instinct, desire, and learning. Similar, if not the same as a human.

If he's not making the decision, [i]who is[/i]?

If we are appointed caretakers to animals, then he has a duty to obey his master. In fact, by necessity due to the dangerous nature of dogs, you punish and reward your dog, to teach him right from wrong. It's wrong to steal food and right to obey commands.

Dogs even apologize when they feel guilty by rolling on their backs.

Does the dog know good and evil? Adam and Eve didn't, and [b]God held them to ethical judgements[/b].

And, by the way, that perfect being argument is garbage. Think of the perfect hamburger. It can only be perfect if it's real too.

It used to be church teaching that <insert awful thing here>. Church teaching is made by humans.

You hope for an empty heaven, I'll hope for one green and full of life, "where all that is not silence is music" (C.S. Lewis).

Oh, and by the way, A man is not a monkey. A bicycle is not a car. A tree is not a rock. We have different words for them because they're different things.

[abercius24]

Wow, carderro. You have some wild ideas there.

The world you propose would be much nastier and valueless than you can ever begin to imagine. You seem to see things with more of a Disney Movie perspective where all animals are nice. That's not how things are in the real world.

As you sit there enjoying our peaceful conversation, you inherently live against the things you preach. The animal kingdom is ruled by fear, punishment, merciless competition and brutal savagery. You see the nice pack of monkeys in the cage at the zoo and you think "oh how nice they are; aren't they cute." But watch them for a while longer, and you'll notice some things that would make you very uncomfortable if you were a monkey. You'll see that they exist in a hierarchy that is subtly, but strictly enforced with violence. The greater monkeys regularly steal food from the lesser monkeys. As well, if you put that pack of monkeys in the same cage as another pack, you'll see them fight each other to the death. Then you'll see the winners eat and/or abuse the losers.

Now if you and I were to live in that "free" world our monkey friends live in, then I would not have bothered to respectfully discuss these issues with you. Instead, I would have sought you ought, beat you senseless and forced you to succumb to my will. Yes, in such a situation, neither of us would find value in each other, nor in our relationship. You would feel a deep sting of injustice within you, not just because you were beaten, but because the very nature of our relationship as fellow human beings dictates that we are meant to care for each other. Furthermore, I would feel a deep sense of guilt within me, again for the same reason. Justice and responsibility are natural elements of our lives as human beings. Animals do not have a sense of justice or responsibility, nor is it natural to them. They care only for those who benefit the continuation of their gene pool -- not because they choose to, but because only those who have done so can survive in the wild. We are called to be responsible for each other and the animals regardless of personal benefit. Animals have no drive whatsoever to care for us nor each other.

Now you may sight individual scenarios where Lassie saved Timmy's life and call it caring for a human being. But from the dog's perspective, Timmy is a member of his pack, and natural selection dictates that dogs must care for their pack in order to survive. You will not find an untrained dog saving the life of a complete stranger, or even moreso a family enemy. We on the other hand would find disgust within ourselves if we witnessed our worst enemy murdered before our eyes. Not just because murder is ugly, but because we share a bond with other human beings which murder betrays.

And realitiies like justice, righteousness, mercy, and the deep bond between human beings are not tangible motivators like genetics and natural selection. These things surpass what nature can produce on its own. These things are spiritual -- ideals -- which come from the godly spirit within men. Our nature is supernatural compared to that of animals, because we are more like God. He IS Justice, Righteousness and Mercy and we live by his example. In fact, I tell you that the very things you find atrocious in your fellow human beings are really things people do to act more like animals and less like God. God does not taunt, exploit, nor disrespect us -- even when we're wrong and oppose Him. These things animals do to each other by their very nature. It may be hard for you to admit it, but what you really want is for people to be more like God to you, but for them to also be patient with the areas in your life where you have yet to find courage to be more like God. I'm positive, though, that if you really study the animal kingdom, you'll soon find that you do not want to live like them. Most of us could never survive in such a harsh and heartless world.

Steve S. -- Abercius24
CatholicQandA.com

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: Actually, they are only concerns to immortal spiritual beings, including humans with immortal souls.[/quote]
How so? What does good and evil have to do with an eternal soul?

[quote]Socrates writes: So apparently, not only are the Christians, Jews, and Muslims all wrong, the Hindus and Buddhists are wrong as well.[/quote]
Only if one believes that GOD is Catholic/Protestant/Baptist/ Unitarian/Amish/Born Again/ Jehovah Witness/Luthren/Mormon/Jewish/Islamic/Hindu/Atheist/Agnostic

[quote]Socrates writes: Seems Carrdero alone, in his near-infinite wisdom, possesses the truth in this matter.[/quote]
I am beginning to believe that you do not understand the definition of Truth.

[quote]Socrates writes: "Hey, I think I want to spend a lifetime living in a cat's anus!"

"Yeah, sounds fun; let's do it!"[/quote]

It sounds like it won’t be a long existence.

[abercius24]

[quote name='FattyBones' post='1347958' date='Aug 2 2007, 08:48 PM']I'm saying animals can reason and make decisions. If a ball hits a wall and bounces, a dog can observe this and will wait for the ball next time it is thrown, instead of running up to the wall. I know this because I've played fetch with a dog.

That's called reasoning by induction.

Given a choice between obeying a command and stealing some food, a dog may do one or the other, obviousely he's making a decision -- based on instinct, desire, and learning. Similar, if not the same as a human.

If he's not making the decision, [i]who is[/i]?[/quote]

Not to argue with you, because I find us more in agreement that some others in this forum. I just wanted to share some of my observations.

Dogs do have a certain level of intelligence and reasoning, no doubt. It's not reasoning in itself that is supernatural, though. Reasoning only takes on a supernatural quality when it is abstract. The dog sees and understands only what his eyes perceived. We see physics, underlying forces, mathematical probabilities -- things that are seen with the mind and not the senses. We also have the ability to create with our abstract intelligence. We can create things that have literally never existed in the world. Apart from random chance, a dog makes his bed pretty much the same way every day. A beaver makes a dam pretty much the same way every time. The lack of abstract intelligence limits their ability to be truly creative, even at a base level which we would expect from a smaller brain. Even the watercolor paintings of apes never represent things the apes have never seen. Human beings are not solely bound to the physical world like other animals.

And animals do in fact have emotions -- sometimes so strong that they can paralyze and kill them. This is not a quality that separates men from animals, though. We find the true distinction when men love like God -- unconditionally. Animals are completely incapable of such unboundless love because grace is necessary to love to that measure.

Edited August 3, 2007 by abercius24

[FattyBones]

True enough, dogs don't even understand pointing.

I got tired of arguing too while writing my last post. I enjoy arguing for it's own sake, but I can get lost in it, especially a verbal argument. I voted for "yes, but a different kind".

I think the disagreement might be trivial. That's one of the reasons I took it on The important thing, in my mind, is to do what Jesus said and did, and Heaven should take care of itself.

I believe in Heaven, I doubt either of us can purport to _know_ exactly what it's like, but I think it may be worth noting that the Heaven you describe and some of the other takes on it I've heard seem very scary to me. I'll believe what my heart tells me.

Although, despite your desire not to argue, I just want to take one last shot: Jesus said he would be "[b]sitting[/b] at the right hand of the Father".

[i]That means he has a body, and a chair.[/i] *chuckle*

And I still thing it would be a waste to utterly destroy a living creature.

OK, no more heresy tonight. LOL

BTW, I was raised Catholic, was an atheist from about grade 5 or 6, until about 2 years out of high school. So I've been a theist for about five years due to "mystical" experiences. I'm trying to become a properly practicing Catholic again, and I hoped some of the good stuff I was reading here would rub off on me. So I didn't come just to argue.

[kamiller42]

My opinion: Animals do not have souls. They have life, but no soul. A soul is a gift from God breathed into man. A soul gives us self-awareness and sensitivity, two things not present in the animal kingdom.

In comparing my thoughts on it with the Catechism, I found the following as the definition of soul:
Soul: The spiritual principle of human beings. The soul is the subject of human consciousness and freedom; soul and body together form one unique human nature.
<and so forth.>

Right on. It's also valuable to read paragraphs 362-366.

[carrdero]

[quote]FattyBones writes: Just for the record, I'm not implying that humans are equivalent to animals. Humans are special and set apart.[/quote]
Why do you feel that humans are set apart or special?

[carrdero]

[quote]abercius24 writes: The animal kingdom is ruled by fear, punishment, merciless competition and brutal savagery.[/quote]
Again, each one of these aspects can easily be compared to humans.

[quote]Abercius24 writes: You see the nice pack of monkeys in the cage at the zoo and you think "oh how nice they are; aren't they cute." But watch them for a while longer, and you'll notice some things that would make you very uncomfortable if you were a monkey. You'll see that they exist in a hierarchy that is subtly, but strictly enforced with violence. The greater monkeys regularly steal food from the lesser monkeys. As well, if you put that pack of monkeys in the same cage as another pack, you'll see them fight each other to the death. Then you'll see the winners eat and/or abuse the losers.[/quote]

Again I am not seeing any difference to humans. I worked in a county jail and had both urine and feces thrown at me. Does this behavior resemble any difference to those monkeys in the cage? Have you ever seen this happen in any Disney movie before?

[quote]Abercius24 writes: And realitiies like justice, righteousness, mercy, and the deep bond between human beings are not tangible motivators like genetics and natural selection. These things surpass what nature can produce on its own. These things are spiritual -- ideals -- which come from the godly spirit within men. Our nature is supernatural compared to that of animals, [color="#000080"]because we are more like God. He IS Justice, Righteousness and Mercy and we live by his example. In fact, I tell you that the very things you find atrocious in your fellow human beings are really things people do to act more like animals and less like God. God does not taunt, exploit, nor disrespect us -- even when we're wrong and oppose Him[/color].[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Apparently you haven’t read the first five books of the Bible.[/color]

Edited August 3, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1348287' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:51 PM']My opinion: Animals do not have souls. They have life, but no soul. A soul is a gift from God breathed into man. A soul gives us self-awareness and sensitivity, two things not present in the animal kingdom.

In comparing my thoughts on it with the Catechism, I found the following as the definition of soul:
Soul: The spiritual principle of human beings. The soul is the subject of human consciousness and freedom; soul and body together form one unique human nature.
<and so forth.>

Right on. It's also valuable to read paragraphs 362-366.[/quote]
Animals may have a spirituality, humans may not just be aware of it.

[Guest Perpetualove]

I once had a parent call me because their family's dog died. She knew the teaching of the Church is that animals don't have souls, and she was absolutely heartbroken at the thought of heaven without her beloved companion.

All I could say to her was that God indeed must love animals very much, for He chose them to be witnesses at His Incarnation. He also commanded that Noah save them. They have acted as true and trusted companions for many of our saints...too many to list here, and I'm sure you all know them. I told her that I couldn't imagine a heaven without them, considering all of this.

I didn't contradict the Church's teaching, and I won't do it here, but honestly, I think FattyBone's quote from C.S. Lewis said it all.

[carrdero]

[color="#FF0000"]So now we know that animals (as well as humans) do not perceive good and evil and we perceive that animals (as well as humans) may not “believe” or need GOD to exist (or die). So what about an animal or plant expressing individual personality. Two flowers that never bloom or grow the same, two dogs or cats who live within the same household but have two different personalities. How do we relate this individuality to the whole issue of soul possession?[/color]

Edited August 3, 2007 by carrdero

[kamiller42]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1348309' date='Aug 3 2007, 12:37 AM']Animals may have a spirituality, humans may not just be aware of it.[/quote]
The Catechism covers spirituality in paragraph 367.

[quote]Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly," with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.[/quote]
Fido was not created for a supernatural end. Fido has no spirit. That's ok. If I get to heaven, my pets will be the last thing on my mind. I'm in heaven with God!

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1348314' date='Aug 3 2007, 12:46 AM']I once had a parent call me because their family's dog died. She knew the teaching of the Church is that animals don't have souls, and she was absolutely heartbroken at the thought of heaven without her beloved companion.[/quote]
I know where you are coming from. I tell anyone in this situation, except young kids, that what you shared with your pet was great, but it's smaller than a crumb of what you will experience in heaven. When you get to heaven and are in presence of God, you will experience the emotions you shared with Fido times a billion. You mind and soul will be so focused on God, Fido might become a passing thought.

I have 2 cats. I think they are wonderful. Pets are a great gift from God for us on earth. That's the key, "on earth." They are earthly pleasures and on earth they will remain. I sometimes wonder if people become too attached to these gifts and go too far in assigning human characteristics to them. (I also don't think cockroaches have a soul and are certainly not in heaven. )

[abercius24]

[quote name='FattyBones' post='1348208' date='Aug 2 2007, 10:44 PM']True enough, dogs don't even understand pointing.

I got tired of arguing too while writing my last post. I enjoy arguing for it's own sake, but I can get lost in it, especially a verbal argument. I voted for "yes, but a different kind".

I think the disagreement might be trivial. That's one of the reasons I took it on The important thing, in my mind, is to do what Jesus said and did, and Heaven should take care of itself.

I believe in Heaven, I doubt either of us can purport to _know_ exactly what it's like, but I think it may be worth noting that the Heaven you describe and some of the other takes on it I've heard seem very scary to me. I'll believe what my heart tells me.

Although, despite your desire not to argue, I just want to take one last shot: Jesus said he would be "[b]sitting[/b] at the right hand of the Father".

[i]That means he has a body, and a chair.[/i] *chuckle*

And I still thing it would be a waste to utterly destroy a living creature.

OK, no more heresy tonight. LOL

BTW, I was raised Catholic, was an atheist from about grade 5 or 6, until about 2 years out of high school. So I've been a theist for about five years due to "mystical" experiences. I'm trying to become a properly practicing Catholic again, and I hoped some of the good stuff I was reading here would rub off on me. So I didn't come just to argue.[/quote]

Christ does have a body which is now in heaven. Yes that is a fact that no faithful Catholic would dare argue against.

[abercius24]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1348305' date='Aug 3 2007, 12:32 AM']Again, each one of these aspects can easily be compared to humans.
Again I am not seeing any difference to humans. I worked in a county jail and had both urine and feces thrown at me. Does this behavior resemble any difference to those monkeys in the cage? Have you ever seen this happen in any Disney movie before?
[color="#000080"]Apparently you haven’t read the first five books of the Bible.[/color][/quote]

This is unfortunately a strawman argument. I did not say all men live up to their calling. I said we have a calling which is what gives us value. You may have worked in a county jail and seen some horrible nasty stuff, but you have yet to meet a saint like Mother Theresa. There is something striking about somebody saintly that simply runs deep into your core. You cannot judge the value of mankind by the worst of us and not consider the best. But perhaps you are not ready to believe that people can be good given your previous bad experiences. I pray that God may lead you to somebody who can help you see goodness again.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1348309' date='Aug 3 2007, 12:37 AM']Animals may have a spirituality, humans may not just be aware of it.[/quote]

And this is the "flying pigs argument". Maybe you really don't care about helping others find what is true. Maybe its just a game of fantasy to you. Maybe's don't cut it. You can't base your argument on a unfounded hypothetical. I could just as easily say that maybe you are a figment of my imagination, and therefore everything you say is irrelevant. But that's just playing games. If you want to play games, there is another forum for that. If you want to have a serious intellectual discussion, then live up to the standard of arguing with substance and not fantasy, please. Come on, really now.

Edited August 3, 2007 by abercius24