Do Animals Have Souls At All?

[carrdero]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1346327' date='Aug 1 2007, 07:33 PM']As Catholics nor Christians believe in reincarnation I would completely disagree with the above post.[/quote]
Are there any other reasons for this disagreement besides that it is not a Catholic or Christian teaching?

[abercius24]

The definition of a soul is the essence of a creature's being which gives it an "animated" and "unified" nature.

The term "unified" refers to a creature consisting of matter that is united by one identity and purpose. A rock is unified because it is made up of minerals that stick together. A pile of dirt is not unified because each dirt particle has no binding force with another dirt particle. The term "animated" refers to a creature having some minimal level of life. A tree is animated because its structures absorbs nutrients from its surroundings, it grows and it will someday whither away and die. A rock is not animated because it does not feed, grow, respond to its external surroundings, nor will it die.

Animals fit both requirements (as do trees and plants) and therefore possess souls. Each cell within a mouse's body is alive, but finds its identity only as part of a greater whole -- the mouse. Mice are also clearly alive (assuming they are not dead). Animals do not have "sentient souls", though, as do human beings.

Our souls are made in the image and likeness of God. We are co-creators who are responsible for our actions and are called to embrace a supernatural existence through grace. Animals are not created in the image of God. They have no such a calling to holiness and supernatural being, nor are they capable of taking such responsibilities. Because our souls' existence has been elevated closer to God's image, we understand that our worth is necessarily greater than that of the animals. We must still care for and love plants and animals because they are reflections of God's goodness.

Steve S. -- Abercius24
CatholicQandA.com

Edited August 2, 2007 by abercius24

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346365' date='Aug 1 2007, 06:43 PM']Are there any other reasons for this disagreement besides that it is not a Catholic or Christian teaching?[/quote]
There are also philosophical reasons for not believing in reincarnation. The soul is very intimately linked to the body - it is the form, or unifying priniciple, of the body. It is not some separate thing which happens to reside in a body, and the body is more than just a "shell". Thus a human soul could not properly inform a nonhuman animal body nor vise-versa.

And your version of reincarnation does not even jive with the Hindu/Buddhist belief in reincarnation, in which reincarnation is a curse keeping one from the ultimate goal of Nirvana, and where one's karma determines whether one is incarnated as a higher or lower creature, rather than the soul simply choosing where it wants to go, as you state.
And honestly, why would a human soul freely wish to choose to be incarnated as a slug or tapeworm?

[abercius24]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346508' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:18 PM']There are also philosophical reasons for not believing in reincarnation. The soul is very intimately linked to the body - it is the form, or unifying priniciple, of the body. It is not some separate thing which happens to reside in a body, and the body is more than just a "shell". Thus a human soul could not properly inform a nonhuman animal body nor vise-versa.

And your version of reincarnation does not even jive with the Hindu/Buddhist belief in reincarnation, in which reincarnation is a curse keeping one from the ultimate goal of Nirvana, and where one's karma determines whether one is incarnated as a higher or lower creature, rather than the soul simply choosing where it wants to go, as you state.
And honestly, why would a human soul freely wish to choose to be incarnated as a slug or tapeworm?[/quote]

...or an amoeba, or a virus, or a bacterium. Those are alive, too!

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346277' date='Aug 1 2007, 05:44 PM']Everythng you mentioned could easily be applied to humans.[/quote]


Can you be more specific? Most humans are capable of percieving God. There are a few eceptions...possibly a mentally disordered person is not capable...in this case i would think that God intended them to be normal but because of the flaw of man...they developed mental disorders. I still think they have souls. I dont believe any animal is capable of percieving God. Therefore they are not capable of percieving morallity. That is my opinion.

Have we ever witnessed an animal make a moral decision?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1346559' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:37 PM']...or an amoeba, or a virus, or a bacterium. Those are alive, too![/quote]

actually a virus is a non-living organism

Edited August 2, 2007 by infinitelord1

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1346327' date='Aug 1 2007, 07:33 PM']As Catholics nor Christians believe in reincarnation I would completely disagree with the above post.

As for FattyBones comment:
"One instinct overrides another"

You mean like when your natural desire for approval from your peers overrides your natural desire for approval from your parents. (drugs, other vices)

Or when your territorial instincts override your desire to make friends. (war)

Or when your drive for survival overrides your instinct to look out for others. (greed)
The difference is man can CHOOSE to follow the natural desires. When my natural desire for sex over rides my natural desire for sleep, I can choose to ignore my sex drive. When my natural desire for food overides my natural desire for work, I can choose to continue my fast and keep working. As a matter of fact... I have no natural desire for work, at least not at my job. So if desires over ride everything else in humans as well, how can I EVER work? My desire for sleep, food, recreation is much greater. This is because I have rational thoughts, and I have the ability to make choices using a rational thought process, not an instinctual thought process.

The thing about animals is they do not have rational thoughts. Animals have instincts, humans do NOT have instincts. Humans have rational thought processes, animals do not.

Yes animals have souls, but no they are not eternal souls, and they are no where near the same as humans. Because an animals soul is not eternal, there would be no animal heaven etc.

As for having animals and plants in the heaven we will experience in eternity... the comment to make it more beautiful would not be appropriate. The beauty of God is so incredible that it is beyond human mortal intellect, therefore I doubt that a dog, or a rose would make heaven anymore beautiful than God already is.

These anyways, are the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

Pax Christi,
Marcus[/quote]

yes to everything you said...

Just to add a little bit, moral law is a higher authority in each person's heart than in an animal's. When there is a man drowning it is your instinct to save yourself, not to save the man. However, you feel that twinge in your heart that tells you to help the man if you can. You cannot just let one of your kind die. Same with the weak and defenseless...if someone strong starts to pick on the weak it is your duty (as told to you by your conscience, that twinge) to help the weak. It is your instinct to avoid the situation or to at least protect yourself. Souls of animals and humans are very obviously different.

Also reincarnation is impossible as the soul and the body are both part of who you are. They are inseperable for you as a person.

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: There are also philosophical reasons for not believing in reincarnation. The soul is very intimately linked to the body - it is the form, or unifying priniciple, of the body. It is not some separate thing which happens to reside in a body, and the body is more than just a "shell". Thus a human soul could not properly inform a nonhuman animal body nor vise-versa.[/quote]
Though I believe that the soul as “I”, I also believe it is a spiritual in origin. When a physical entity dies, the soul is freed from the body and returned to the spiritual realm. This soul then has an opportunity to incarnate into another physical existence that the entity chooses (if it desires).
[quote]Socrates writes: And your version of reincarnation does not even jive with the Hindu/Buddhist belief in reincarnation, in which reincarnation is a curse keeping one from the ultimate goal of Nirvana, and where one's karma determines whether one is incarnated as a higher or lower creature, rather than the soul simply choosing where it wants to go, as you state.[/quote]
No it doesn’t, does it. There is no point or karma system to my belief system. No physical entity is lowly, better, higher or more worthy than another.
[quote]Socrates writes: And honestly, why would a human soul freely wish to choose to be incarnated as a slug or tapeworm?[/quote]
Possibly for the same reason that we do not understand why people attend Barry Manilow concerts. Most likely it is for the experience.

[carrdero]

[quote]abercius24 writes The definition of a soul is the essence of a creature's being which gives it an "animated" and "unified" nature.

The term "unified" refers to a creature consisting of matter that is united by one identity and purpose. A rock is unified because it is made up of minerals that stick together. A pile of dirt is not unified because each dirt particle has no binding force with another dirt particle. The term "animated" refers to a creature having some minimal level of life. A tree is animated because its structures absorbs nutrients from its surroundings, it grows and it will someday whither away and die. A rock is not animated because it does not feed, grow, respond to its external surroundings, nor will it die.

Animals fit both requirements (as do trees and plants) and therefore possess souls. Each cell within a mouse's body is alive, but finds its identity only as part of a greater whole -- the mouse. Mice are also clearly alive (assuming they are not dead).[/quote]

This is a very astute definition.

[quote]abercius24 writes:Our souls are made in the image and likeness of God.[/quote]
Which I presume is spiritual.

[quote]We are co-creators who are responsible for our actions and are called to embrace a supernatural existence through grace.[/quote]

Atheists too?

[quote]abercius24 writes:Animals are not created in the image of God.[/quote]
Explain what you mean by “image” for me please.

[quote]abercius24 writes: Because our souls' existence has been elevated closer to God's image, we understand that our worth is necessarily greater than that of the animals.[/quote]
How so?

Edited August 2, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: Can you be more specific?[/quote]
I think FattyBones handled it accurately (Post #27).
[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: Most humans are capable of percieving God.[/quote]
Yes, humans have wonderful imaginations with some imaginations being more imaginative than other imaginations. I don’t believe that animals have much of a need to exercise imagination or the need to murder in the name of God.
[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: I dont believe any animal is capable of percieving God. Therefore they are not capable of percieving morallity. That is my opinion.

Have we ever witnessed an animal make a moral decision?[/quote]

Have we ever witnessed GOD make a moral decision?

Edited August 2, 2007 by carrdero

[abercius24]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347013' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:24 AM']abercius24 writes: "We are co-creators who are responsible for our actions and are called to embrace a supernatural existence through grace."

Atheists too?[/quote]

Yes, all human beings who have the capacity to act as stewards of God's creation are called to that responsibility. And we have a spiritual nature that allows God to work through us, allowing us to "move mountains", if you will. Human beings are very powerful creatures, especially when they work together, and particularly when they work in grace. Remember, we are only one button away from complete, global annihilation -- nuclear holocaust. Every living creature on this planet is at the mercy of mankind's actions. We have the capacity to excercise godly or ungodly power beyond our comprehension. Animals do not even begin to possess such power.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347013' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:24 AM']abercius24 writes: "Animals are not created in the image of God."

Explain what you mean by “image” for me please.[/quote]

We can never be exactly like God, because He is infinite in every way. We are limited by finite measures. But we are very real reflections of God's being. We were created to participate in His being. We are meant to be supernatural creatures, not just animals. Remember, the animals and man were created together -- on the 6th day, if you will. The 7th Day -- the day of worship -- was created to separate us from the animals and unite us intimately with God. Through worship comes grace, and through grace comes participation with God's plan and a place in His work of creation and dominion (He as King, we as stewards).

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347013' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:24 AM']abercius24 writes: "Because our souls' existence has been elevated closer to God's image, we understand that our worth is necessarily greater than that of the animals."

How so?[/quote]

God has chosen to rest His own Spirit within us, thereby making us Holy objects. Again, we are given the authority and power to administrate over His creation. Though a groom could love any woman, his bride becomes more precious to him after they are united in marriage. Our intimate union with God (or at least our purpose to be united with Him) has elevated us in His eyes. He has given us greater value, which we must recognize to do Him honor.

Steve S. -- Abercius24
CatholicQandA.com

Edited August 2, 2007 by abercius24

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347025' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:39 AM']I think FattyBones handled it accurately (Post #27).

Yes, humans have wonderful imaginations with some imaginations being more imaginative than other imaginations. I don’t believe that animals have much of a need to exercise imagination or the need to murder in the name of God.
Have we ever witnessed GOD make a moral decision?[/quote]

hmmm. What do you make of your belief that animals do not have much of a need to exercise imagination or the need to murder in the name of God?

Fatty bones is assuming animals have souls in his post which i disagree with.

And since God is that which nothing greater can be percieved (perfect) he sets the standard for morallity. We will never reach being the same as God. We will always make mistakes. The purpose of morallity is for us not for him. Since we have the ability to make decisions we can choose to make moral decisions or go against morallity. This does not apply to God. He is perfect.

[carrdero]

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: hmmm. What do you make of your belief that animals do not have much of a need to exercise imagination or the need to murder in the name of God?[/quote]

The point that I am trying to make is that animals may have it right. Maybe animals do not express service or worship to GOD because they know that GOD does not require worship or service. Just because they do not acknowledge GOD like humans acknowledge Him does not put animals at a disadvantage from humans nor does it jeopardize the security of their souls.

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: Fatty bones is assuming animals have souls in his post which i disagree with.[/quote]
No FattyBones was pointing out there is not much of a difference to the behavior of animals to the behavior of humans. Humans are just another animal. Humans are the smartest monkey.

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: And since God is that which nothing greater can be percieved (perfect) he sets the standard for morallity.[/quote]

I do not believe that GOD sets human morality because GOD is not human. We create, situate and implement human morality because we are human and though there are quite a few things that we can do that animals cannot do, we do have the capability of learning how to live together respectfully and peacefully. This is our responsibility, not GOD’s.

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: We will never reach being the same as God.[/quote]
You’re absolutely right but while occupying a physical existence we have a unique opportunity to become something else, we have a special opportunity to be ourself.

[quote]Infinitelord1 writes: We will always make mistakes. The purpose of morallity is for us not for him. Since we have the ability to make decisions we can choose to make moral decisions or go against morallity. This does not apply to God. He is perfect.[/quote]

Which is why I will never subscribe to a punishing, judging GOD. Who is more qualified to know and be understanding of the challenges that humans must encounter than GOD?

Edited August 2, 2007 by carrdero

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347071' date='Aug 2 2007, 08:28 AM']The point that I am trying to make is that animals may have it right. Maybe animals do not express service or worship to GOD because they know that GOD does not require worship or service. Just because they do not acknowledge GOD like humans acknowledge Him does not put animals at a disadvantage from humans nor does it jeopardize the security of their souls.
No FattyBones was pointing out there is not much of a difference to the behavior of animals to the behavior of humans. Humans are just another animal. Humans are the smartest monkey.
I do not believe that GOD sets human morality because GOD is not human. We create, situate and implement human morality because we are human and though there are quite a few things that we can do that animals cannot do, we do have the capability of learning how to live together respectfully and peacefully. This is our responsibility, not GOD’s.
You’re absolutely right but while occupying a physical existence we have a unique opportunity to become something else, we have a special opportunity to be ourself.
Which is why I will never subscribe to a punishing, judging GOD. Who is more qualified to know and be understanding of the challenges that humans must encounter than GOD?[/quote]


Fist of all i just want to point out that those comments, in which you are now commenting on, were addressing the previous post that you made in regards to one of my posts. Now you are taking what I say, adapting to it, in a manner that shows you do not believe in God. In the case that you do not believe in God, I would like to provide you with an arguement (known as St. Anselm's monologian) which has been reduced to a much simpler form to understand...

1) God is that-which-no-greater-can-be-thought (or "X")
2) X exists only in the understanding (by concept) or X exists in reality also.
3) X does not only exist in the understanding.
----------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, X exists in reality as well as the understanding.

To further prove premise 3, we can use the Negation of Supposition conclusion by assuming the opposite of the conclusion and proving it contradictory:
3-1. X exists only in the understanding.
3-2. If X exists only in the understanding, then something greater than X can be thought, because being in the understanding and in reality is greater than just being in the understanding.
3-3. If something greater than X can be thought, then X is not equal to X (there is something greater than that-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought).
3-4. X is unequal to X. (From 3-1,3-2,3-3)

Therefore, X does not only exist in the understanding.


Anyways, I would like to now address your concerns...if you wish to put your faith into something like "animals may have it right" because "they know that God does not require worship or service" then you have the right to do so. I am only saying that, I believe, that they do not have the capacity to even recognize that there is a God, and because of that, they do not have the right to do so. Furthermore, since they do not recognize that there is a God they are not subject to morallity, and God recognizes that it is unnecessary for them to have a soul since they do not recognize him. I think they were created for the benefit of mankind...that is all. They are nothing more than machines that preform a function. There function is to serve the earth. Without them then other forms of life (including humans) would not survive. Humans are the dominant species on this planet and we live off of other forms of life (including animals, plants, etc.).

P.S. it seems as if you are either questioning God's existance or you are questioning the credibility of the Christian God. The difference between the Christian/Judea God and all other Gods of other religions is....those who believe in Yahweh (the Christian/Judea God) are called to serve him.

Edited August 2, 2007 by infinitelord1

[carrdero]

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: I am only saying that, I believe, that they do not have the capacity to even recognize that there is a God, and because of that, they do not have the right to do so. Furthermore, since they do not recognize that there is a God they are not subject to morallity, and God recognizes that it is unnecessary for them to have a soul since they do not recognize him.[/quote]

The observational evidence demands that whether animals or humans know GOD or not, whether animals or humans have a need for GOD or not, this lack of recognition, service, worship, adoration to a GOD is not conducive to a physical entities existence (or GOD’s existence) or a physical entities capacity for containing a soul (if one believes in souls).

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: I think they were created for the benefit of mankind...that is all. They are nothing more than machines that preform a function. There function is to serve the earth. Without them then other forms of life (including humans) would not survive. Humans are the dominant species on this planet and we live off of other forms of life (including animals, plants, etc.).[/quote]

It sounds like you suffer from the same ailment as millions of other humans suffer from. This DISease is called “down syndrome” (not to be confused with the other disease of the same name). Many humans believe that God looks down on them so it is only fitting that they look down on other life forms that do not resemble them. Recognizable symptoms may include proclaiming that Jesus died for their lives and calling this the Ultimate sacrifice but when animals and plants die for their lives, they call this dinner. These humans deem other life forms as inferior who can only sustain their survival, their faith or make their lives content just to keep them dominant. There is a cure. Humans need to get over themselves and start thinking “up”.

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: P.S. it seems as if you are either questioning God's existance or you are questioning the credibility of the Christian God. The difference between the Christian/Judea God and all other Gods of other religions is....those who believe in Yahweh (the Christian/Judea God) are called to serve him.[/quote]

A Supreme BEing as described by many religions that needs anything or needs anything from any other entity does not impress me.

Edited August 2, 2007 by carrdero