Do Animals Have Souls At All?

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

Please Debate. Do animals have souls? If they do is it a different kind? Where dose this put plants? Your ideas, thoughts, and church teahings, Please.

[jeffpugh]

Animals have a different kind of soul. It dies with their body. I don't currently have any evidence that backs this up, except for the fact that we were created in the "Image and Likeness" of God.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1345522' date='Jul 31 2007, 03:57 PM']Please Debate. Do animals have souls? If they do is it a different kind? Where dose this put plants? Your ideas, thoughts, and church teahings, Please.[/quote]

Animals- maybe
Plants- probably not, except for Venus Fly Traps.

[FattyBones]

Some things that might be relevant:

Many plants and some animals: when a piece is cut off them, it creates a new plant or animal. Are their souls therefore divisible? Cutting off a piece of a human does not produce a new human.

Some animals have reasoning skills and apparently the ability to do evil -- the example I like to use is ants. Sometimes, but [b]not always[/b], when an ant's duty is moving or feeding the larvae, she will eat some of the larvae instead (worker ants are all female, hence "she"). It's not the fact they do it, it's the fact that they don't always that convinces me that they have will.

Since animals seem to have a will, but also to have divisible souls where humans do not, I'd have to say yes, but a different kind of soul. I would think that there would be plants and animals in heaven, because it would be prettier -- I don't see why God would waste all the ones living on earth and create new ones in heaven (despite the fact that He certainly could if he wanted to).

Of course I assume a heaven that resembles the world (but better of course).

A guess by someone who took a couple philosophy courses (but no theology).

( \____________/ )
(_FattyBones-----\ )

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='FattyBones' post='1345617' date='Jul 31 2007, 06:01 PM']Some things that might be relevant:

Many plants and some animals: when a piece is cut off them, it creates a new plant or animal. Are their souls therefore divisible? Cutting off a piece of a human does not produce a new human.

Some animals have reasoning skills and apparently the ability to do evil -- the example I like to use is ants. Sometimes, but [b]not always[/b], when an ant's duty is moving or feeding the larvae, she will eat some of the larvae instead (worker ants are all female, hence "she"). It's not the fact they do it, it's the fact that they don't always that convinces me that they have will.

Since animals seem to have a will, but also to have divisible souls where humans do not, I'd have to say yes, but a different kind of soul. I would think that there would be plants and animals in heaven, because it would be prettier -- I don't see why God would waste all the ones living on earth and create new ones in heaven (despite the fact that He certainly could if he wanted to).

Of course I assume a heaven that resembles the world (but better of course).

A guess by someone who took a couple philosophy courses (but no theology).

( \____________/ )
(_FattyBones-----\ )[/quote]

That's pretty much how I feel. Heaven will be a garden. (Kind of like Eden, only more so.)

[Socrates]

According to traditional Thomist philosophy, animals have what is called an "animal soul." (Plants have "vegetative souls.") The soul in this sense is the unifying principle, or "form" of any living thing.
The soul is what animates a living animal. An animal without a soul is a dead animal. THe matter of the body no longer has an animated form, and the animal is dead, and the matter in the body decomposes, or breaks down into separate substances.

However, the animal soul is considered purely material, and ceases to exist when the animal dies. Only man has a "rational soul," which is spiritual in nature, and thus lives on after a human being dies. Only the human soul is spiritual and immortal.

It would take a bit more to go into detail on all the philosophy behind this (and I've honestly gotten rusty on this since my college philosophy classes), but that's the short answer in a nutshell.

[Socrates]

[quote name='FattyBones' post='1345617' date='Jul 31 2007, 07:01 PM']Some things that might be relevant:

Many plants and some animals: when a piece is cut off them, it creates a new plant or animal. Are their souls therefore divisible? Cutting off a piece of a human does not produce a new human.

Some animals have reasoning skills and apparently the ability to do evil -- the example I like to use is ants. Sometimes, but [b]not always[/b], when an ant's duty is moving or feeding the larvae, she will eat some of the larvae instead (worker ants are all female, hence "she"). It's not the fact they do it, it's the fact that they don't always that convinces me that they have will.

Since animals seem to have a will, but also to have divisible souls where humans do not, I'd have to say yes, but a different kind of soul. I would think that there would be plants and animals in heaven, because it would be prettier -- I don't see why God would waste all the ones living on earth and create new ones in heaven (despite the fact that He certainly could if he wanted to).

Of course I assume a heaven that resembles the world (but better of course).

A guess by someone who took a couple philosophy courses (but no theology).

( \____________/ )
(_FattyBones-----\ )[/quote]
Ants (nor any other insects or non-human animals) cannot make moral choices. They are not spiritual and only follow instinct. Sometimes one instinct will override another (hunger vs. carring for offspring), but an ant has no concept of "good" or "evil." Ants in fact, do not have intelligence at all, although they form a complex social unit. This shows the intelligence of their Creator, rather than the intelligence of the ant. (Ants do not willingly invent their social structure, nor can they change it - it is governed by instinct.)

The "divisible soul" thing has nothing to do with the difference between man and the lower animals.
Only primitive animals can reproduce this way, and I'd say as soon as a new animal is formed, it has its own seperate "animal soul" (or life principle).
Most higher animals, including all reptiles, birds, and mammals, cannot reproduce this way, but reproduce sexually the same as human beings (more or less). Thus, that has nothing to do with the difference in the human soul.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1345630' date='Jul 31 2007, 07:13 PM']According to traditional Thomist philosophy, animals have what is called an "animal soul." (Plants have "vegetative souls.") The soul in this sense is the unifying principle, or "form" of any living thing.
The soul is what animates a living animal. An animal without a soul is a dead animal. THe matter of the body no longer has an animated form, and the animal is dead, and the matter in the body decomposes, or breaks down into separate substances.

However, the animal soul is considered purely material, and ceases to exist when the animal dies. Only man has a "rational soul," which is spiritual in nature, and thus lives on after a human being dies. Only the human soul is spiritual and immortal.

It would take a bit more to go into detail on all the philosophy behind this (and I've honestly gotten rusty on this since my college philosophy classes), but that's the short answer in a nutshell.[/quote]

I concur with Scorates. I was looking around Summa for a quote about this but I couldn't find one, though this is what I've heard said on the matter before.

[aalpha1989]

score:

aalpha:1 ponti: 0


hehe um sorry man i'm just kidding

Edited August 1, 2007 by aalpha1989

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1345767' date='Jul 31 2007, 08:50 PM']score:

aalpha:1 ponti: 0
hehe um sorry man i'm just kidding[/quote]


:laughs: no your not.

[Cow of Shame]

vegetative soul? Is that when your soul is in a coma?

[carrdero]

[quote]Pontifite 7 of 1 writesw: Please Debate. Do animals have souls? If they do is it a different kind? Where dose this put plants? Your ideas, thoughts, and church teahings, Please.[/quote]

I believe they have souls and that these souls incarnate for the experience. I also believe these existences have valid purposes.

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: Ants (nor any other insects or non-human animals) cannot make moral choices. They are not spiritual and only follow instinct. Sometimes one instinct will override another (hunger vs. carring for offspring), but an ant has no concept of "good" or "evil."[/quote]
I do not believe that these concepts qualify to a soul.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1345996' date='Aug 1 2007, 01:31 AM']I do not believe that these concepts qualify to a soul.[/quote]

i don't think he was using those qualities of ants to prove a soul. He was merely responding to the idea that ants can make 'evil choices'.

[Maggyie]

I have had long discussions with my cat about how she can't expect to go to Heaven, even though she is a very good cat, because she doesn't have the right type of soul.

Why are you looking at me like that? Don't you argue with your cat? No, I don't want to take any medi-

[aalpha1989]

i would argue with my cat except he's a dog. so i argue with my dog. poor guy. no matter how cute and soft and fun he is he can't ever go to heaven. *sigh*

[Maggyie]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1346008' date='Aug 1 2007, 02:41 AM'] i would argue with my cat except he's a dog. so i argue with my dog. poor guy. no matter how cute and soft and fun he is he can't ever go to heaven. *sigh*[/quote]

Those people who made the "All Dogs Go to Heaven" movie were liars!

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1346009' date='Aug 1 2007, 01:41 AM']Those people who made the "All Dogs Go to Heaven" movie were liars! [/quote]

yeah. *sniff*. NEITHER of my dogs will make it. *sigh*. i GUESS that's ok. i mean God's plan is a little better than mine...

'cept my dogs are both getting pretty old. it's sad!

[Maggyie]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1346014' date='Aug 1 2007, 02:47 AM']yeah. *sniff*. NEITHER of my dogs will make it. *sigh*. i GUESS that's ok. i mean God's plan is a little better than mine...

'cept my dogs are both getting pretty old. it's sad![/quote]

Maybe there is an Animal Heaven where the good dogs and cats will enjoy a state of natural happiness... Like limbo, but for critters... one can always hope!

When my first dog died when I was younger, my mother told me that she was sitting on Jesus' lap in Heaven. Thanks Mom! Lol, maybe He can make an exception here and there... after all He is God, He can do whatever He wants!

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1346017' date='Aug 1 2007, 01:49 AM']Maybe there is an Animal Heaven where the good dogs and cats will enjoy a state of natural happiness... Like limbo, but for critters... one can always hope!

When my first dog died when I was younger, my mother told me that she was sitting on Jesus' lap in Heaven. Thanks Mom! Lol, maybe He can make an exception here and there... after all He is God, He can do whatever He wants![/quote]

.....

if you say so. . i guess it's true that one can always hope...

i've had my oldest dog for 10 years! i'm gonna miss him when he dies....he's my favowite. i'm his favorite too, but dont tell the rest of the family. . he sleeps with me the most (cept not during summer cause its too hot) and he follows me around more than anyone else...