Cross: Crossing The River Of Spiritual Separation

[cimlog]

Kristen, Hey This is Scotty G!

You made some interesting points

[phatcatholic]

moderators........this needs to be moved to the debate table

[Aloysius]

no one here said anyone was going to hell. married priesthood is a discipline of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, it's just the way we practice it has nothing to do with doctrine. marriage is a sacrament and it is recognized outside of the Church however, re-marriage is not recognized by the church. if your parents re-married and their first marriage was valid (they would havta have an annullment to say it wasn't valid) then they cannot receive communion because what God has joined together let no man put asunder.

also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN. any other interpretation is wrong, because as the scriptures say "The Church is the pillar and bulkward of truth" and Jesus didn't teach us everything He had to teach us 2000 years ago shown by His sacred words "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth" that was promised to the Apostles, and it holds true with the Apostolic Magisterium today. All doctrine defined by the Catholic Church must be held by Catholics. that's not stuff like prayin the Rosary or somethin like that, it's like believing the 27 books of the New Testament are the Inspired Word of God, it's believeing that Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, and that He is present in the Holy Eucharist, It's believing that the sacrament of Holy Orders gives a mere man the power to bring Christ to his congregation, it's believing that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed into heaven, that she is the Queen Mother of us all. it's also believing the Morals set forth by the Church, that contraception is immoral, that homosexual acts are immoral, that sex outside of marriage is immoral, and even the hard teaching of Christ Himself that God hates divorce and that, unless the first marriage wasn't valid, you cannot re-marry. this is the kind of stuff you must believe to be fully Catholic, and protestants are only partially Catholic because they only believe part of that, and some "Catholics" are also only partially Catholic if they only believe parts of that. no disrespect intended, love ya both as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the main goal of CHristianity is ONE UNITED BODY OF BELIEVERS with NO DIVISION, believing ALL the same doctrine...

now i really must be going off to eat n park to work...

Pax Christi

[hyperdulia again]

Look Christen and Andy you are welcome to your opinions about the Church, but they are not Church Teaching. The Catholic Church is the infallible and indefectable Bride of Christ. She cannot err on faith and morals. If you all are putting together this group, please show the Protestants the actual teachings of Holy Church, not the schewed logic and private interpretations of a couple of 17 y/o's. This probably sounds very rude, but when you label your beliefs as the teachings of the Catholic Church you put forth a lie.. Please do not represent yourselves as speaking for the Bride.

[Confessionator741]

There are other churches in this world that have more of an impact on people than the Catholic Church.

There is no person that has had a greater impact on the world than Jesus Christ. There for, anything he set up...would have the largest impact as well. The church is the bride of Christ, no doubt. You cant deny that, you just cant. its in scripture. But to say that other churchs have had a greater effect on the world than the catholic church is not so hot in my book, or anybody elses either. Those other churchs would be nothing had the catholic church not layed them down. I really disagree with what you said.

I am glad tho that you are posting on phatmass andy, i hope that you will learn alot.

B

[cimlog]

Wow this is getting deep. I gotta go lay down and let this all sink in and get my thoughts together.

[Confessionator741]

no one here said anyone was going to hell. married priesthood is a discipline of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, it's just the way we practice it has nothing to do with doctrine. marriage is a sacrament and it is recognized outside of the Church however, re-marriage is not recognized by the church. if your parents re-married and their first marriage was valid (they would havta have an annullment to say it wasn't valid) then they cannot receive communion because what God has joined together let no man put asunder.

also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN. any other interpretation is wrong, because as the scriptures say "The Church is the pillar and bulkward of truth" and Jesus didn't teach us everything He had to teach us 2000 years ago shown by His sacred words "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth" that was promised to the Apostles, and it holds true with the Apostolic Magisterium today. All doctrine defined by the Catholic Church must be held by Catholics. that's not stuff like prayin the Rosary or somethin like that, it's like believing the 27 books of the New Testament are the Inspired Word of God, it's believeing that Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, and that He is present in the Holy Eucharist, It's believing that the sacrament of Holy Orders gives a mere man the power to bring Christ to his congregation, it's believing that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed into heaven, that she is the Queen Mother of us all. it's also believing the Morals set forth by the Church, that contraception is immoral, that homosexual acts are immoral, that sex outside of marriage is immoral, and even the hard teaching of Christ Himself that God hates divorce and that, unless the first marriage wasn't valid, you cannot re-marry. this is the kind of stuff you must believe to be fully Catholic, and protestants are only partially Catholic because they only believe part of that, and some "Catholics" are also only partially Catholic if they only believe parts of that. no disrespect intended, love ya both as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the main goal of CHristianity is ONE UNITED BODY OF BELIEVERS with NO DIVISION, believing ALL the same doctrine...

now i really must be going off to eat n park to work...

Pax Christi

doc, ur amazing.

kristen and andy, i have to disagree once more. I stand with doc.

B

[Dave]

Firstly, Being Catholic is believing in the physical presence of God in the Eucharist. That is what makes us Catholic.

No, being Catholic is being in union with the Church Christ founded and his successor, who is the Pope. That means accepting ALL the Church's teachings. If you don't, you shouldn't call yourself a Catholic.

If you want to say that following every word that comes from the Vatican makes you Catholic, and that everything that they say is from the Word of God himself, where is it in the Bible does it say that priests can't marry?

Celibacy for priests is a discipline, not a doctrine. But it's not un-biblical. In one of his letters, St. Paul says that it's good to be celibate, as he also was. And you can't limit the Word of God to the Bible. It also includes Sacred Tradition. And the teachings of both are transmitted to us via the Magisterium, or Church teaching authority.

So does the fact that I disagree with that make me not Catholic?

Well, as long as it's not doctrine I'd say it's not a sin to disagree. That's not the case for doctrines, though.

Where does it say that someone who isn't married in the church shouldn't be allowed to recieve Communion? My parents were married at a young age, and due to expenses had a quite ceremony in their back yard. My mother is a great woman, but she wasn't allowed to recieve Communion simply because she was not married in the Catholic Church until after I was born. Where does the Bible say that is acceptable?

Jesus elevated marriage to the status of a sacrament. And He told Peter (and also Peter's successors) that whatever they bind or loose on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven. The Church has determined that Catholics should be married in the Church. One of the 10 Commandments is to honor your father and mother. That doesn't just include your parents but ALL legitimate authority. And how much more legitimate can you get than the Church!

I listen to what Christ has told me. I know what Christ has said because I carefully read His Words. So if I disagree with what man tells me, that makes me no less Catholic than the best of us. Infact, I'd say that my faith is stronger because I can decide what I believe for myself and not have it spoon fed to me.

There's no difference between what the Church says and what Christ says. They're ONE AND THE SAME. If you disagree with Church doctrine, then you're not in communion with the Christ's Church, and you have no business receiving Holy Communion, as it's a mortal sin to willfully disagree with Church teaching. Also, Communion is a sign of unity, so it wouldn't be appropriate to receive it when you're not 100% in union with the Church. Also, your decision to pick and choose what you want to believe or obey isn't based on faith. Rather, you're putting your feelings and opinions ABOVE God. If you follow those, you will ALWAYS be led astray.

Secondly, I understand that we were the first established Christian Church, but we are not our own religion. To be Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior. That makes us a denomination of Christianity and there is nothing wrong with that. I think many Catholics need to open up to our brothers and sisters in Christ and realize that they also follow God's Word and they should earn our respect because of that.

Didn't you read what was written earlier in this thread? A denomination is man-made. The Catholic Church is not. But that doesn't mean the Church doesn't accept Protestants as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thirdly, who are we to say that people who aren't Catholic are wrong or especially condemned to hell. We can't say who goes to hell, and contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church hasn't either. It is not for us to say that Catholicism is the only way to truth and salvation. Our God is all forgiving (or at least thats what the Catholic Church says!)

NO ONE has said that non-Catholics are going to hell. What the Church teaches about the salvation of non-Catholics is that there's such a thing as invincible ignorance. If a person sincerely is unaware that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church, God, in His mercy, won't hold it against Him.

[cmotherofpirl]

WElcome to phatmass.

I'm glad you have firm opinions, however, they are your personal ones, and are not Catholic, nor conform to Catholic teaching.

If you want to post one thing at a time in the debate table, we will be happy to discuss them with you.

You have a great many misconceptions of the teachings of the Catholic Church, starting with the fact the Church has NEVER condemned anybody to hell.

I look forward to talking with you.

[Paladin D]

Andy and Kristen, many of us Catholics on Phatmass, are actually converts. For example, I used to be a Pentecostal/AOG believer.

[crossingstandrewspass]

"The Catholic Church follows the Word of God 100%. The Word of God is found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I've read the Catechism, much like most of us here, and we all agree the Church is totally Christ-based."

One, I, Andy, have a word that I need to get out. The Word of God is not backed in the Catholic Church. The Word of God, in fact, is blasphemed in the Roman Catholic Church. Some examples include your adoration of the Pope as a "Holy Father" and the ever-so-famous title he gets to proclaim "Your Holiness." This is blasphemy in the Highest. I believe in the faith of the Catholic Church, however I do not believe in the corruption that man has taken into the Church. They have defiled the Roman Catholic Church, and in turn, they have defiled God.

The Ten Commandments clearly state that in Exodus 20:3, Exodus 20:4, and Exodus 20:7. Each one states, "You shall have no other gods before me." (I.E.: Using the Pope as an idolization rather than someone who runs the church and has no real meaning in what goes on in Heaven or in Hell, and that's a fact). "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." (Again, you hail the Pope as something HE IS NOT. He is not a god, and he is surely not God, that again is a stated fact backed by the Word of God). "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (E.G.: Calling the Pope "Your Holiness" and "Holy Father" is blasphemy against the Word of God, and believe it or not, that's also a fact, because the Word of God is definitely truer than that of what the Vatican says).

If you use a simple tool the Webster's International Student Dictionary, it states that Holy is a word that should only be used for one who is apart from sin. The Pope is NOT apart from sin.

-------

Kristen's Comment- First of all to respond to the comment about my parent's marriage... My parents were never divorced. They just remarried in the Church when they were more financial able to. Should someone really be denied the most beloved part of our faith simply because of financial issues? I think Jesus Christ would much rather have someone of faith come to Him and accept Him rather than suffer the loss of Communion simply because they couldn't afford a church wedding. What God denies his children to come to him if they ask to be part of Him?

Next point- I love the Catholic faith. I am part of it for a reason. As for being a 17 with "schewed" views, I'm very insulted. I have done the research, the reading, and the faith living or someone three times my age, so to say that my ideas are schewed is just narrow minded. Secondly, I never claimed that my ideas are the teachings of the Church, nor would I say to anyone that they were. I agree with the faith of the Church entirely, but I don't always agree with what Man's interpretation of it, which is where other rules of ours come from. Who are we to say that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is 100% true? When the Lord comes down and blesses the Catholic Church as the only way to truth and light, someone please let me know. All men are sinners, and none of us are perfect, so what makes us think that we carry out God's will correctly 100% of the time. Who are you, or any other man, including Catholic authority, to have the right to condemn? Only God can condemn another man. Keep in mind, I LOVE the Catholic Faith. Disagreeing with a few issues that man has interpreted makes me no less Catholic than anyone else. I am a Christian above all things.

---------

"Look Christen and Andy you are welcome to your opinions about the Church, but they are not Church Teaching. The Catholic Church is the infallible and indefectable Bride of Christ. She cannot err on faith and morals. If you all are putting together this group, please show the Protestants the actual teachings of Holy Church, not the schewed logic and private interpretations of a couple of 17 y/o's. This probably sounds very rude, but when you label your beliefs as the teachings of the Catholic Church you put forth a lie.. Please do not represent yourselves as speaking for the Bride."

One, you are not one to tell me that I should not represent the Roman Catholic Church in any way... maybe I'm not inclined to because I don't believe in EVERYTHING the Vatican says, but I also would like to let you know that the Catholic Church holds a very valid and hard position in my heart. I love all Catholics, in fact, I feel closest to God in the Catholic Church more than I do anywhere else, however, that doesn't incline me to lose my power to think and question doctrine of man. I should question the doctrine of man, with the Word of God. The Word of God is what I use, not the Pope, not the Cardinals, not the Bishops, not the Priests, but God and His Word alone.

- Andy

--------------

Another issue, the fact that people are saying that Roman Catholic Church is the only church that has an impact on people. You're wrong. The Roman Catholic Church has impacts on certain people, and I'm one to attest to such a thing. I was touched by God at a Catholic retreat, I'd say that's pretty amazing. However, other churches do have a "greater effect" on the world around us. The Church might be the Bride of Christ, however the Hands of Christ and the Power of Christ are within all churches, not just the Roman Catholic Church.

- Andy

---------------

"also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN."

Not one place in the Word of God (aka the Bible) does it tell me that I should follow Sacred Tradition. In fact, I also think that that's blasphemed in the Word of God as well. Doesn't it say that you should not be of the world? You would be of the world wouldn't you by following Sacred Tradition?

Again, who are we to say that our interpretation of the Bible is "almightly" correct? The Catholic Church has an interpretation and of course the Protestants have their own interpretation, I have yet to see either one be a correct interpretation. I'm not saying that I'm correct in my Biblical interpretation either, however, when I ask for understanding when I read the Word of God, I get the understanding. God has the power to help me understand without the Pope holding my hand telling me what HE thinks. I'd much rather have God hold my hand than the Pope.

[Confessionator741]

very nicely stated c-mom..

[cmotherofpirl]

this needs moved,

[Paladin D]

Kristen, are you sure you're really Catholic? If so, then you would have to accept the Apostle's Creed...

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

...also, one of the most crucial points of the Catholic faith, is the belief that Jesus founded the One, Holy, Apostolic Church (aka, Catholic Church). Christ promised that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it, but this does not mean that Satan will not try and use individuals to disgrace it. Even during the dark times of the Church (bad popes and such), none of the doctrines were changed!

So, to claim that you're a practicing Catholic, yet reject some of the most crucial tenets of the faith... is absurd. To be on a team, you must accept the rules and regulations. Guys, you really need to pray. I myself, am a convert. I've had many of the same doubts as you guys did, but over time... through much prayer, meditation, study and research, I accepted them.

What helped me greatly, was accepting the fact that Christ founded a Church upon Peter, and that he promised him that the gates of hell will not prevail. There will be individuals who would try, but it will never budge. So when I accepted this, it was so much easier to accept everything else... since I put my trust and faith into Christ's Church.

I think you and Andy's problem, is doubt and misinterpretation/ignorance on some issues. Stick around Phatmass, and we'll answer all the questions you have. :cool:

[cmotherofpirl]

"The Catholic Church follows the Word of God 100%. The Word of God is found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I've read the Catechism, much like most of us here, and we all agree the Church is totally Christ-based."

This part you got right.

One, I, Andy, have a word that I need to get out. The Word of God is not backed in the Catholic Church. The Word of God, in fact, is blasphemed in the Roman Catholic Church. Some examples include your adoration of the Pope as a "Holy Father" and the ever-so-famous title he gets to proclaim "Your Holiness." This is blasphemy in the Highest. I believe in the faith of the Catholic Church, however I do not believe in the corruption that man has taken into the Church. They have defiled the Roman Catholic Church, and in turn, they have defiled God.

You just contradicted yourself. WE don't adore the Pope, but tis one in particular we do revere. There is a difference. Look up a Catholic definition of blasphemy.

The Ten Commandments clearly state that in Exodus 20:3, Exodus 20:4, and Exodus 20:7. Each one states, "You shall have no other gods before me." (I.E.: Using the Pope as an idolization rather than someone who runs the church and has no real meaning in what goes on in Heaven or in Hell, and that's a fact). "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." (Again, you hail the Pope as something HE IS NOT. He is not a god, and he is surely not God, that again is a stated fact backed by the Word of God). "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (E.G.: Calling the Pope "Your Holiness" and "Holy Father" is blasphemy against the Word of God, and believe it or not, that's also a fact, because the Word of God is definitely truer than that of what the Vatican says).

If you use a simple tool the Webster's International Student Dictionary, it states that Holy is a word that should only be used for one who is apart from sin. The Pope is NOT apart from sin.

You are confused. Nobody ever said te Pope didn't sin.

Look up the defnition of impecablity.

Kristen's Comment- First of all to respond to the comment about my parent's marriage... My parents were never divorced. They just remarried in the Church when they were more financial able to. Should someone really be denied the most beloved part of our faith simply because of financial issues? I think Jesus Christ would much rather have someone of faith come to Him and accept Him rather than suffer the loss of Communion simply because they couldn't afford a church wedding. What God denies his children to come to him if they ask to be part of Him?

If you have no money a priest will marry you and waive any fee. No one is reqiured to have a big Church wedding all you need is two witnesses.

Next point- I love the Catholic faith. I am part of it for a reason. As for being a 17 with "schewed" views, I'm very insulted. I have done the research, the reading, and the faith living or someone three times my age, so to say that my ideas are schewed is just narrow minded. Secondly, I never claimed that my ideas are the teachings of the Church, nor would I say to anyone that they were. I agree with the faith of the Church entirely, but I don't always agree with what Man's interpretation of it, which is where other rules of ours come from.

You are contradicting yourself again. If you agree with the Church entirely, then you agree with how the Church interprets itself.

Who are we to say that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is 100% true? When the Lord comes down and blesses the Catholic Church as the only way to truth and light, someone please let me know.

He did that already.

All men are sinners, and none of us are perfect, so what makes us think that we carry out God's will correctly 100% of the time.

THe Church is divinely rooted in Christ, and we are promised the gates of hell will not prevail.

Who are you, or any other man, including Catholic authority, to have the right to condemn?

THere is a differnece between condemning and pointing out errors. We are pointing out errors. Nobody is condemning anybody.

Only God can condemn another man. Keep in mind, I LOVE the Catholic Faith. Disagreeing with a few issues that man has interpreted makes me no less Catholic than anyone else. I am a Christian above all things.

THese are not a few issues, these are main issues. If you are a Catholic you accept the teachings of the Church. You do not pick and choose the ones you want to agree with. It is one, holy, catholic and apostolic founded by Jesus Christ.

---------

[Paladin D]

Oh, I'm 17 too. :lol:

[crossingstandrewspass]

Alright, This is going to be really short and sweet. I feel that I have defended my point. I choose to listen to God, and not every word that comes from the mouth of man. If I am wrong in doing so, then I shall answer to God when my time comes. Luckily for me, and yourselves, you won't be the person I answer to, but I will answer to my God. I believe that if I follow HIM and I follow what I believe to be His will in my life, then I will achieve an eternety with my Lord. I am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else. I will continue to live my Catholic faith as I choose, and as many others I know have lived. I know that what matters is that I have a love for Jesus Christ. Little matters other than.

~Kristen

[cimlog]

I know that what matters is that I have a love for Jesus Christ.

Amen to that.

[crossingstandrewspass]

Originally, this post was to state what the organization was, not the debates on issues that we could possibly be determining in the near future. I would also like to comment as a conclusion to defending my belief on the Pope's "impeccability" that's it's complete and utter misunderstanding and contradiction on your part. You think that it doesn't exist, but contrary to your hometown Parish where everyone thinks everything that the Pope instates that all the beliefs that everyone should follow, other Parishes and other Parishioners have a somewhat less brainwashed mind and can think on their owns. End, conclusion, fin, fini, nous sommes fini avec ton poste. Merci pour tes comments. :)

[Confessionator741]

Kristen, i recomend you talking to somebody about thinsg that you believe in. From this point of view, you seem to be very lost, confused, and thats ok, it happens to all of us. But i urge you to really look at what you are saying. I do agreee that it is great that you have love for Jesus Christ, thats amesome. But, if love Jesus that much, really read the scriptures, you will find that the catholic church is Christs church. It is infalliable in matters of faith. If you love Christ as you say you do, then you must love the church as well.... Kristen, think about it.

B