Laudate_Dominum Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 This context of the word catholic is referring to the christian faith as a whole, not Catholocism specifically. These definitions of universal don't quite fit your beliefs of complete and total acceptance. Not true. The use of the word Catholic in the patristic era (and hence in the creed) was to denote the One True Church of Jesus Christ founded on the Apostles and perpetuated through their successors. The heretics of the day (who by your standards would be christian) were excluded from the title "catholic". The fathers use the term in this way as seperating the true Church from the heretical sects. Also it was the authority of ecumenical councils (ie., Nicea) that propagated the creed and reciting the creed during the Divine Liturgy was an expression of the common faith of all who were united to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The thing that makes a local church part of the Catholic (Universal) Church is precisely communion with the successors of the Apostles (Bishops) thoughout the world. Apart from that you are a local sect. This is more faithful to the patristic use of the term and hence the meaning of the term in the creed.
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 4.) One can not say that because someone does not accept one piece of the church, they are not Catholic. This is like saying that if you disagree with the president, you are not an American, or if you disagree with your teacher you are not a student. Well, it depends on the nature of what you disagree with. If you don't believe in God you can't say your a Christian. If you deny the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. You certainly cannot pose as a Catholic. If you disagree with the Pope's take on the war in Iraq you are still a Catholic. There are always boundaries and limits. The doctrines of the Faith are interconnected and to deny a central doctrine of the Faith is essentially to deny the Faith as a whole. Part of being a Catholic is believing that the Catholic Church can teach authoritatively, this was part of Christ's promise to the Church. To deny a dogmatic or definitive teaching of the Church is in basically to deny the essence of Catholicism and hence be outside of Orthodox Christian belief. Being an american or a student is not based on faith, being a Catholic (or any religion) is so what you believe is central to what you are. If you don't profess the Catholic Faith you are not a Catholic, at least not in any really meaningful sense. You might be culturally "catholic" or something like that but you have not truly embraced that Catholic Faith. Also since being a Catholic is being a member of an institutional Church, that same Church can say what it requires for membership. Definitive teachings of the Church usually carry the weight of an anathema is they are denied. This means you are no longer Catholic in the Church's eyes. So what are you? You can't be Catholic just because you say so. It's an empty statement. Sort of like if I went around saying I was American but did not have citizenship (I am however a citizen). So if the U.S. government revoked your citizenship for denying an article of the constitution this would be binding. But the Church is a community of believers, correct belief is essential. If you go to Mass and recite the creed but don't believe it you are a liar and a false catholic.
cmotherofpirl Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 (edited) If a priest is presenting something other than the Catholic faith to young people, not yet formed in their faith, there is a problem--the is teaching heresy and appendinng the name Catholic to it, it is an abuse of the trust people put in their priests. If a man taught this kind of trash to my children...nm... I'm writing a letter. He is using a building belonging to the Catholic Church to teach something other than the Catholic Faith. This is more important than his help with those struggling morally...our morals don't scare Satan...OUR FAITH IN CHRIST as revealed to HIS CHURCH does. Bishop Weurl is a good man. I have rarely seen priests here teach heterodoxy and get away with it. Several years ago a priest came out in favor of womens ordination during a sermon and was moved the next day. This had better be a simple failure of communication. I think Father thinks we are feeneyites, and thats why those particular answers were given. Edited February 7, 2004 by cmotherofpirl
Brother Adam Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 Second, even today there are vastly more Catholics in the world than all protestant denominations combined. Actually is about 51%-Catholic to 49% Protestant/non-Catholic
PedroX Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 On the issue of Salvation: The Catholic Church is the only NORMATIVE means of salvation. This means that for most people, in most of the world salvation comes through the Catholic Church. It secondly means that any salvation that occurs outside of the Catholic Church occurs because of the Grace and Power (and Authority) given to the Catholic Church through Apolstolic succession. I admire your desires to form unity among all Christians. However, unity must never be sought at the expense of Truth. We must never be so caught up in our pursuit of unity that we are willing to sacrifice the Truth as revealed through Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Lastly, on authority: It is not neccessary to have belief in every discipline of the Catholic Church. However, in order to avoid causing a scandal to the faith of others our public assent is neccessary. We can disagree on interpretation (sometimes) but we must always give our assent. If we withold our assent, we are out of communion with the Universal (which does mean Universal, not the largest part) Church and perhaps not even Catholic. peace...
Confessionator741 Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 i would like to congragulate all of you who participated in this debate so far. Not only have you more than likely dumbfounded those who were opposing the True view, you have deepend my believe in the Church. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Second. I am a member of the Church that has been under such controversy in the last few pages. I must say that yes, our youth groups and catechisis(sp) classes are under catholicised (again, sp). But i think that this is under no fault of theres. They (youth ministers) comfortable being as blunt as you are (being blunt as you are is a good thing). I understand fully what they are saying during their lessons, but that is because i am knowledgable on matters such as these, i mean c'mon, i hang out at the phat. But others, who are just taking what they say at face value might not understand fully the message they are trying to get across. It is no fault of there own, its just a communication issue. I must say that it is sad to see that there are so many that attend our youth groups every sunday and even more than that sometimes, and still know so little. It seems that we have created Cafeteria Catholic monsters (exaggeration). I really hope that their attendace here in phatmass, which i will be more openly promoting now at youth group, will have a + effect on their faith, a Truthfull effect. Please pray for them, our church and those leading it. Thank you. B
Aloysius Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 lol, get more ppl from St. Ferds on here arguin Hyper's bound to call in the Inquisition on our butts!!! :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
Confessionator741 Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 i dont an inquisition is necessary, i think that prayers are more suitbable for right now..
Aloysius Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 yeah i know. i understand y whoever was advisin JC said what they did, it's prolly a miscommunication, JC misunderstanding our position, he seemed to somehow think we condemned protestants to hell and don't accept Vatican II, which is UNTRUE however, i am concerned about the statement that pointing out errors is inherently un-Catholic. that's just a blatent lie. the Church HAS ALWAYS pointed out errors, if she didn't we would never have defined that Jesus was true God and true man, we'd have like 100 books to pick and choose from as to what is in the Bible, and all sorts of stuff. if the Church didn't point out error her truth would be currupted by it :ph34r: .
-I---Love Posted February 7, 2004 Posted February 7, 2004 Aloysius - would someone please edit his posts referring to who the religious authority may have been - seriously for my sanity and the good of all - we should not be presuming who it is and if we know who it is we should talk to them alone - I'd just really apprectiate if we deleted the presuming who the person is part out of here. Also great job to all debaters and I will continue to check out the progress in here...it's very profitable. Peace+ JMJ P.S. I must go reflect on the meaning of Cafeteria Catholic ...
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 8, 2004 Author Posted February 8, 2004 That would be more suitable seeing as how the Diocese and the Parish have absolutely nothing to do with Cross. It might be a building owned by the Roman Catholic Church, however, it remains under public scrutiny to determine what to do with it. Secondly, we have not been approved to use the buildings on the Parish property at the current time seeing as how we have not gone through the Apostalate Committee or the Pastoral Committee. Thirdly, Cross is an independent organization, not directly or in any way affiliated with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh or better yet any church. We have denominational councils and that is it. Fourthly, I recognize each point that is being made on this debate table and would to bring it to each of your attentions that we will not be teaching the Catholicism chapter. Kristen and I wouldn't have taught it anyways. We find ourselves to biased and supposedly "confused" to do such a thing. We would have to find stronger Catholics who know more and have researched more. (I.E.: Confessionater741 and Aloysius). Fifthly, I denounce any position against the Roman Catholic Church, seeing as how recently I have read a book that has changed over 50% of my views. "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth." Excellent book and it has made me see a lot of things differently. I'd also like to say in the most part, that I will be attending RCIA classes this coming September, which in part, I'll learn more about the Catholic faith and hopefully, become Catholic, as my long aspiration would be fulfilled. On a sixth note, by writing a letter to the Diocese, this wont accomplish much seeing as how the only thing they would allow us to do is come on to the property for mass. Cross will probably not even end up using St. Ferdinand Parish as a destination for one of it's meetings. In Christ and In Faith, Andy (P.S.: The Parish is not to blame for my beliefs. If you think it is, you need to get checked because I am not Catholic. It's partially my parents and the Southern Baptist Convention.)
Dave Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 Fifthly, I denounce any position against the Roman Catholic Church, seeing as how recently I have read a book that has changed over 50% of my views. "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth." Excellent book and it has made me see a lot of things differently. I'd also like to say in the most part, that I will be attending RCIA classes this coming September, which in part, I'll learn more about the Catholic faith and hopefully, become Catholic, as my long aspiration would be fulfilled. That's amesome, Andy! I'll pray for you on your journey; how 'bout that?
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 8, 2004 Author Posted February 8, 2004 That works a little bit better than trying to enforce an inquisition on the Parish I attend. Thanks! Oh yeah, and sorry if I offended you (which I probably did). Most of my views are Southern Baptist oriented because that's where I grew up. They preached against the Church constantly and in turn, they've brainwashed me. Thanks for opening up my eyes guys! God Bless, Andy
phatcatholic Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 andy, i just want to commend you from the bottom of my heart for opening your heart to what we were saying and for acknowledging your change of heart and for letting us know. "cor ad cor loquitor" -- heart speaks to heart pax christi, phatcatholic
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 8, 2004 Author Posted February 8, 2004 Now that I can say Amen to.
VeraMaria Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 :cool: just read seven pages of an interesting debate :D
Aloysius Posted February 8, 2004 Posted February 8, 2004 PhatCatholic says we should put it in the reading room. <my "feature debate" idea isn't goin anywhere..>
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