Modesty And Discernment

[Ora et Labora]

wow...haha! i LOVE that show!!!

[Slappo]

As for men and modesty, I do think that there is a certain dignity in which they should dress, even in regards to style. I think modesty for men comes a lot more with appropriateness of the occasion. As was said earlier in the posts, modesty is dressing with the dignity of a human body. It is not undignifying to where carharts when painting a house, but to where painted carharts to mass, or to a wedding would be what I would consider immodest.

Also definitely with the comment on undergarments like boxers, no way should they be showing. Pants shouldn't be worn low, and t-shirts shouldn't be too tight (muscle shirts). Shorts still shouldn't really be short. Even though the upper leg of a man may not be as attractive, it still shouldn't be revealed. Basically the same dress applies to men as it does women, the difference is men don't usually have a hard time adhearing to the form of their body, and therefore clothing is VERY EASILY accesable for men. Even those who may not try to dress modest, are still dressed with a certain dignity becuase it is much harder to buy inappropriate clothes as a male (in my opinion).

I'm a strong supporter of slacks (dress pants), button shirts (or at least polo's), and sweaters. In the summer, dress shorts and short sleeve button shirts! Although I don't strictly adhere to what I support myself. I don't have any short sleeve button shirts, and I'll often wear jeans (lately) to my desk job than dress pants. A lot of it is I've only had this conviction for a few months, and financially trying to go to college and buy more clothes doesn't work too well. I have a lot of nice shirts and sweaters come fall and winter, but summer is still difficult. I need a couple more pairs of slacks too, or at least to do my wash more often!

Well I kinda rambled, and now I should go back to work. Adios!

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1348229' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:00 PM']There should be a sense of the sacred and mysterious when it comes to the female body. We can be likened to the ark of the covenant, having the potentiality to bear life [i]within[/i] us. Even if we never do, physically, we always have that [i]potentiality[/i], and that makes our bodies very privileged. We should reverence that privilege (and so should men, but we have to be the ones who promote reverence by the way we dress and by our actions). It is a gift from God and modesty is what safeguards it for Him, and potentially for a husband.[/quote]

I disagree a bit here. The body is something, as God's handiwork, to be celebrated and known in a proper context. To insist that the body be shrouded in formless robes is to deny the beauty of God's creation. Should muscular men shroud their arms or buttocks because women may find them potentially attractive or rousing?

This doesn't mean that women should run around immodestly, but to pretend the female form doesn't exist because it may arouse men is silliness. We are created with sexual energy (to, uh, make more of us....) and it must be kept in check just like every other human inclination (industriousness, recreation, appetite). Don't pretend you're breasts aren't there...trust me, every single person on the street knows they exist.

I prefer a race of people with two genders that are obvious and beautiful, and not neutered.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1348666' date='Aug 3 2007, 10:24 PM']I disagree a bit here. The body is something, as God's handiwork, to be celebrated and known in a proper context. To insist that the body be shrouded in formless robes is to deny the beauty of God's creation. Should muscular men shroud their arms or buttocks because women may find them potentially attractive or rousing?

This doesn't mean that women should run around immodestly, but to pretend the female form doesn't exist because it may arouse men is silliness. We are created with sexual energy (to, uh, make more of us....) and it must be kept in check just like every other human inclination (industriousness, recreation, appetite). Don't pretend you're breasts aren't there...trust me, every single person on the street knows they exist.

I prefer a race of people with two genders that are obvious and beautiful, and not neutered.[/quote]

To me it doesn't seem like you disagree - modest does not have to equal formless (although the reverse is probably true ). Respecting your body doesn't mean ignoring it! You can wear clothes that flatter you, but don't show off particular attributes. Especially if some people would take any chance to mentally reduce you to those attributes. I'm not saying I can or should make them not do that - just that I'm surely not going to help them

[Chiquitunga]

Hey CA, that's an incredible story about your growing up in Saudi Arabia! Thanks for sharing! And yes, that's such a beautiful dress!!!

Yeah, when I began discerning, I stopped wear shorts, and generally began wearing more dressed up clothes, though not very dressy - just whatever I have - on a daily basis, since I would usually go to daily Mass. And nowadays I pretty much always wear some light long-sleeved cardigan when I'm in church - though the a/c at my parish really requires that anyway!

Edited August 3, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Carmelitess]

Thanks for all the great comments!

C.A., your dress is so feminine and pretty! That's so interesting about your having lived in Saudi Arabia.

Thanks so much to Philosobrat for that great website! I now can't believe how many options there are out there for women and girls trying to dress modestly.

Btw, I've often wondered about bathing suits and modesty (for men and women). Why is it okay to wear bathing suits (which don't leave much to the imagination---they're so tight and don't cover one's legs, etc.) at the beach, but it's not proper in any other context. It's not as if the men at the beach suddenly stop checking girls out as soon as they hit the sand. I actually heard Mother Angelica from EWTN say she didn't like bathing suits b/c they weren't modest.

I don't know if anybody's heard about it, but I like the idea of the "Pink Beach" in Italy---absolutely no men allowed! From what I understand, the Italian women got so fed up with the men chasing after them and gawking at them, that they set up this beach that's all for women and girls. They should do something like that in America. LOL

Please understand that I'm not judging anybody here, just giving my two cents.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1348666' date='Aug 3 2007, 03:24 PM']I disagree a bit here. The body is something, as God's handiwork, to be celebrated and known in a proper context. To insist that the body be shrouded in formless robes is to deny the beauty of God's creation. Should muscular men shroud their arms or buttocks because women may find them potentially attractive or rousing?

This doesn't mean that women should run around immodestly, but to pretend the female form doesn't exist because it may arouse men is silliness. We are created with sexual energy (to, uh, make more of us....) and it must be kept in check just like every other human inclination (industriousness, recreation, appetite). Don't pretend you're breasts aren't there...trust me, every single person on the street knows they exist.

I prefer a race of people with two genders that are obvious and beautiful, and not neutered.[/quote]

First off, I never said anything about "formless robes". That's from your own imagination. In fact, I wasn't talking at all about what type of styles should be worn. I was talking about what should be [i]covered up[/i]. I also commented that those things are reserved for God and the spouse. Those parts of the body ARE celebrated by the way God uses them and allows us to use them. But I don't think you'd disagree, for example, that women should go around "celebrating" their wombs in front of men who aren't their husbands. Again, I never said anything about formlessness... that's totally out of the topic I was addressing

[quote name='veniteadoremus']To me it doesn't seem like you disagree - modest does not have to equal formless (although the reverse is probably true smile.gif ). Respecting your body doesn't mean ignoring it! You can wear clothes that flatter you, but don't show off particular attributes. Especially if some people would take any chance to mentally reduce you to those attributes. I'm not saying I can or should make them not do that - just that I'm surely not going to help them[/quote]

EXACTLY. Thank you

Edited August 3, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1348875' date='Aug 3 2007, 06:57 PM']First off, I never said anything about "formless robes". That's from your own imagination.[/quote]
Must be the heat and the wine....and the brandy.....and the scotch....

My gosh, I drink like a priest!

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1348919' date='Aug 3 2007, 07:31 PM']Must be the heat and the wine....and the brandy.....and the scotch....

My gosh, I drink like a priest![/quote]

[Johanna]

My clothing did not really change much. The only thing I pay attention to now is that I do cover my cleavage (which I did most of the time anyway even before). The other thing is that I go to church almost every day now and therefore also cover my shoulders and my knees. On the rare occasions I cannot attend Holy Mass one day [i]and[/i] it is really hot outside, it happens that I wear only a tank top or a skirt that ends just above my knees, but in comparison with other girls around, even that is kind of "modest". And I do wear really tight T-shirts, even to church, and I do prefer them to the loose ones. You can see one I really like here: [url="http://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?op=article&article_id=315249&p=1"]My favorite T-shirt[/url]

P.S.: I, too, love ankle-length skirts!

Edited August 4, 2007 by Johanna

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Johanna' post='1349347' date='Aug 4 2007, 01:20 PM']My clothing did not really change much. The only thing I pay attention to now is that I do cover my cleavage (which I did most of the time anyway even before). The other thing is that I go to church almost every day now and therefore also cover my shoulders and my knees. On the rare occasions I cannot attend Holy Mass one day [i]and[/i] it is really hot outside, it happens that I wear only a tank top or a skirt that ends just above my knees, but in comparison with other girls around, even that is kind of "modest". And I do wear really tight T-shirts, even to church, and I do prefer them to the loose ones. You can see one I really like here: [url="http://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?op=article&article_id=315249&p=1"]My favorite T-shirt[/url]

P.S.: I, too, love ankle-length skirts![/quote]

Oh my! Is that... Is that... a European Catholic webshop? *drops over* I want that shirt!

[Johanna]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1349351' date='Aug 4 2007, 01:57 PM']Oh my! Is that... Is that... a European Catholic webshop? *drops over* I want that shirt![/quote]

Yes, it is. A German one to be accurate.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Johanna' post='1349355' date='Aug 4 2007, 02:09 PM']Yes, it is. A German one to be accurate. [/quote]

Natürlich, natürlich

[LilyofSaintMaria]

Gee, I was just thinking about this and up pops your post. I am only just able to post my response after two pages of posts! I see a couple here, but could you name some clothing stores that deal with strictly modest clothing? Your favorites I mean? That would help! Especially stores that sell modest pants. I know skirts are usually the modest way to go to cover the lower half, but sometimes you can't wear them like in my kind of work, a skirt or dress would be at times immodest and even dangerous. So any suggestions?
Modesty means to cover, but not smother (I guess that might be the right word - it rhymes anyway! ) You are to cover your body so as not to be a source of temptation to others or yourself. And I mean yourself by being frivolous, worried about your looks, giving into peer pressure, etc. You are also God's daughter (& son) so dress neatly and properly. Not with frumpy pants or oversized shirts or bellowing dresses and the same goes with tight pants, low necklines, short/tight shirts, short skirts, sheer clothing, and so on. How important is it for you to dress and act as modestly as possible? Is it a virtue that is different for everyone or like the rest of the virtues there is only one way to develop the good habit?

Since you've wondered about changing to more modest dress during discernment have you also been more conscious of staying (or becoming) fit? Jesus healed both the physically and spiritually ill. What do you do to keep both in balance?
And another thing comes to mind. What do you think about makeup? Is makeup fine to use? If so, how much? In my opinion (although I don't wear any - it would be a waste of time for me in my work) makeup is fine as long as it enhances and doesn't cover or turn one into these black-eyed, purple lip zombies I've seen lately. (I just don't know why that do that!) Anyways, I really would like any thoughts you might have about this.

Thank you!
Bernadette

[Carmelitess]

[quote name='LilyofSaintMaria' post='1350219' date='Aug 5 2007, 01:26 PM']Gee, I was just thinking about this and up pops your post. I am only just able to post my response after two pages of posts! I see a couple here, but could you name some clothing stores that deal with strictly modest clothing? Your favorites I mean? That would help! Especially stores that sell modest pants. I know skirts are usually the modest way to go to cover the lower half, but sometimes you can't wear them like in my kind of work, a skirt or dress would be at times immodest and even dangerous. So any suggestions?
Modesty means to cover, but not smother (I guess that might be the right word - it rhymes anyway! ) You are to cover your body so as not to be a source of temptation to others or yourself. And I mean yourself by being frivolous, worried about your looks, giving into peer pressure, etc. You are also God's daughter (& son) so dress neatly and properly. Not with frumpy pants or oversized shirts or bellowing dresses and the same goes with tight pants, low necklines, short/tight shirts, short skirts, sheer clothing, and so on. How important is it for you to dress and act as modestly as possible? Is it a virtue that is different for everyone or like the rest of the virtues there is only one way to develop the good habit?

Since you've wondered about changing to more modest dress during discernment have you also been more conscious of staying (or becoming) fit? Jesus healed both the physically and spiritually ill. What do you do to keep both in balance?
And another thing comes to mind. What do you think about makeup? Is makeup fine to use? If so, how much? In my opinion (although I don't wear any - it would be a waste of time for me in my work) makeup is fine as long as it enhances and doesn't cover or turn one into these black-eyed, purple lip zombies I've seen lately. (I just don't know why that do that!) Anyways, I really would like any thoughts you might have about this.

Thank you!
Bernadette[/quote]


Hey, Bernadette!

I don't know how old you are, or what kinds of clothes you like to wear, but here is a website that sells more modest pants for people in their teens or twenties:

[url="http://www.gap.com/"]Gap[/url] For some reason, this season Gap has some more modest pants.

I don't know how you feel about shorts, but this Catholic website has long, loose shorts for girls and teens: [url="http://www.upstreamgirl.com/"]Up Stream Girl[/url] They also have skirts, shirts, and dresses---the non-billowy type.

Here is a list of websites that sell women's pants. Since these sites are aimed at pleasing women in over 30, the clothes are a ton more modest than what you'll find at teen stores. A lot of these clothes are not stylish, but maybe that doesn't bother you.

[url="http://www1.talbots.com/talbotsonline/index.aspx"]Talbots[/url]

[url="http://www.llbean.com/"]L.L. Bean[/url]

[url="http://www.eddiebauer.com/eb/default.asp"]Eddie Bauer[/url]

[url="http://www.landsend.com/"]Land's End[/url]

Well, you wanted to know what people thought about fitness and makeup. I think that fitness is wonderful, since it keeps us healthy. What can be a problem is when the desire to be physically in shape leads to a wish for physical perfection---The Cult of the Body. I'm sure you know that, though. An added benefit to being physically fit is having the energy to clean those monastery or convents!

As far as makeup goes, I don't think it's a good idea. This might sound radical, but I think that makeup should be reserved for people who have scar tissue or actual deformities. It seems so artificial to try and fix what isn't broken. Of course I'm not saying that wearing makeup offends God! I just think it's better to be natural and real, i.e., makeup free.

I hope that helped! I'm sure others will give you some great answers to your questions!

Blessings to you,

Margaret

[Totus Tuus]

Well, I kind of have adventures when I go shopping, to find modest clothing in regular stores. It can be frustrating at times, but I don't always like the styles at "strictly modest" stores. Some seasons it's really easy to find modest clothing at regular stores, but other seasons you really do have to search hard.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I have similar experiences to Lauren. Most of my clothes come from normal shops. When I decided that I wanted to dress more modestly and that spaghetti straps weren't going to cut it, I just starting wearing light jackets over the top or accessorising with my old Saudi headscarves - some of them make absolutely brilliant shawls. Nice and swishy. I think everybody should have at least one huge scarf or shawl with a couple of pretty brooches for pinning. Mine are very versatile - they serve as headcoverings for Mass, blankets for when I am on the train, wraps when I'm cold, extra shopping bags (this is one of their more creative uses and it makes me look a little too like Johnsonville brat Whittington for my liking), picnic blankets...the list goes on.

[Chiquitunga]

I'm not sure if this link was posted yet, but here's a page on Colleen Hammond's (the one who wrote, [url="https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/669/"][i]Dressing with Dignity[/i][/url]) site, that my sister had up the other day, with a bunch of resources for finding modest clothing: [url="http://www.colleenhammond.com/resources.html"]http://www.colleenhammond.com/resources.html[/url]

[Laudem Gloriae]

Are any of these - or other? - links good for getting the typical live-in, retreat or postulant wear like - black stockings, long (mid-shin) black or brown jumpers, skirts, etc and white long-sleeved or 3/4 sleeve blouses? There are some overseas religious orders that don't have postulant habits and they ask you to bring these items and others. I have seen the long jumpers but in either a tacky print with flowers and such or in denim or in corduroy. Any links, suggestions?

I am still checking out the links from MargaretClare and others but I thought I'd post this in case some others who had live-ins and such got these items somewhere I hadn't found yet. Any suggestions or other links? Often the modest clothing women would wear to work or everyday is too "fancy" for a live-in or a postulant every day wear in an order. Thanks.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Margaret Clare' post='1489622' date='Mar 31 2008, 01:37 PM']I'm not sure if this link was posted yet, but here's a page on Colleen Hammond's (the one who wrote, [url="https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/669/"][i]Dressing with Dignity[/i][/url]) site, that my sister had up the other day, with a bunch of resources for finding modest clothing: [url="http://www.colleenhammond.com/resources.html"]http://www.colleenhammond.com/resources.html[/url][/quote]

OK not to open a huge can of worms but that book is completely and totally plagiarized. It's pretty sad.