Priests, Liturgical Abuses, And Correction

[Dave]

The priest at the parish here where I live commits a whole slew of liturgical abuses in Mass. I've been meaning to confront him about them for some time now. However, I have a friend who insists that I should keep my mouth shut, as he's a priest, so, according to him, we should basically act like priests can do no wrong (he never came right out and said that, though). His reasoning? This little blurb from the Pieta prayer book:

CRITICISM OF PRIESTS

Our Lord's revelations to Mutter Vogel

"One should NEVER attack a priest, even when he's in error, rather one should pray and do penance that I'll grant him My grace again. He alone fully represents Me, even when he doesn't live after My example!"(page 29, Mutter Vogel's Worldwide Love, St. Grignion Publishing House, Altoting, South Germany (29.6. 1929)

"When a Priest falls we should extend him a helping hand THROUGH PRAYER AND NOT THROUGH ATTACKS! I Myself will be his judge, NO ONE BUT I!" "Whoever voices judgment over a priest has voiced it over me; child, never let a Priest be attacked, take up his defense." (Feast of Christ the King 1937) "Child, Never judge your confessor, rather pray much for him and offer every Thursday, through the hands of My blessed Mother, Holy Communion (for Him) (18.6. 1939) "Never again accept an out-of-the-way word about a Priest, and speak no unkind word (about them) EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE! Every Pirest is My Vicar and My heart will be sickened and insulted because of it! If you hear a judgment (against a Priest) pray a Hail Mary." (28.6.1939)

"If you see a Priest who celebrates the Holy Mass unworthily then say nothing about him, rather tell it to Me alone! I stand beside Him on the altar!" "Oh pray much for my priests, that they'll love purity above all, that they'll celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with pure hands and heart. Certainly the Holy Sacrifice is one and the same even when it's celebrated by an unworthy priest, but the graces called down upon the people is not the same!" (28.2.1938)

I take it to mean exactly what it says, that we shouldn't attack priests. Correcting and attacking are 2 different things. But no, this guy insists they're the same thing. I told him that if he took that idea and ran with it to its full implications, it would follow that we couldn't even report pedophile priests simply because they're priests.

Any thoughts? What would y'all say to him if you were me?

[phatcatholic]

i agree w/ u dave. you're not judging, or attacking, or accepting a false word, you're telling the truth w/ love. actually, as long as u operate under the intention of telling the truth w/ love, then u are doing the most charitable thing here. for one, u care for the priest and u wish for him a better, more perfect participation in the mass. also, u care for ur congregation, who may be negatively effected by these liturgical abuses. i think that b/c a priests actions effect so many people (especially when he celebrates the mass) that constructive criticism is very important. and if he is a humble and loving man--instead of a prideful one--then he will be thankful that you have made this effort to help him become a better priest.

so, as long as you "tell the truth w/ love" and maintain the proper reverence that is due to a man of the cloth, then u are justified in correcting him.

at least, that's how i see it......

[Dave]

Thanks, dude.

[aByzantineCatholic]

Dave,

Find a eastern rite Church to go to.

Take a virtual tour of a Ukraine Catholic Church: http://www.saintelias.com/KKBldg_elia/KKBldg_elia.html

In fact, everyone should take this tour. :P

Edited February 7, 2004 by aByzantineCatholic

[Dave]

Dave,

Find a eastern rite Church to go to.

There aren't any around here! The nearest ones are like a 4 hour drive or so!

[aByzantineCatholic]

What about a Latin indult Mass?

[Dave]

What about a Latin indult Mass?

The nearest Latin indult Mass is also that same length a drive. I live in a small town in south Georgia. In this part of the state, Catholics are really, I mean REALLY, a minority.

[jasJis]

Dave,

Don't confront him. I am quite sickened by the way priests are being attacked now, with noboy praying for them. In my parish, the priest is attacked, challanged, under-mined, gossipped about, etc., but I don't see any one praying FOR him. Lay people attacking priests is why dUSt's parish doesn't have a priest.

And don't be running off to a different parish. All that means is you refuse to even consider him a priest and that you won't pray for him. If some things really bother you, ask to meet with him, tell him you have liturgical questions, and bring them up as honest, non-attacking questions. At best, you can hope to get him to start thinking about your questions. You can do this without challenging the authority and rights he has a priest and pastor, that are a consequence of the grace of his ordination. Keep the Pieta prayers in mind you posted.

I think the biggest challenge to priests, and the reason why so few answer the call, is the disrespect lay people now have towards the priesthood. Please don't add to the problem. If we don't respect the authority of a priest in our midst, do you really believe we can respect what the GIRM and Magesterium really are?

[Dave]

Dave,

Don't confront him. I am quite sickened by the way priests are being attacked now, with noboy praying for them. In my parish, the priest is attacked, challanged, under-mined, gossipped about, etc., but I don't see any one praying FOR him. Lay people attacking priests is why dUSt's parish doesn't have a priest.

And don't be running off to a different parish. All that means is you refuse to even consider him a priest and that you won't pray for him. If some things really bother you, ask to meet with him, tell him you have liturgical questions, and bring them up as honest, non-attacking questions. At best, you can hope to get him to start thinking about your questions. You can do this without challenging the authority and rights he has a priest and pastor, that are a consequence of the grace of his ordination. Keep the Pieta prayers in mind you posted.

I think the biggest challenge to priests, and the reason why so few answer the call, is the disrespect lay people now have towards the priesthood. Please don't add to the problem. If we don't respect the authority of a priest in our midst, do you really believe we can respect what the GIRM and Magesterium really are?

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Fraternal correction isn't the same thing as attacking. Besides, I always pray for priests.

And don't be running off to a different parish.  All that means is you refuse to even consider him a priest and that you won't pray for him.

That's not true. One can still pray for a priest and consider him a priest without going to his parish, especially if speaking to the priest and/or bishop doesn't help matters.

If some things really bother you, ask to meet with him, tell him you have liturgical questions, and bring them up as honest, non-attacking questions.  At best, you can hope to get him to start thinking about your questions.  You can do this without challenging the authority and rights he has a priest and pastor, that are a consequence of the grace of his ordination.  Keep the Pieta prayers in mind you posted.

Well I guess maybe we are on the same page after all. When I said I planned to confront him, I didn't mean in the sense of being confrontational. You can confront people without being confrontational. Meeting with him and doing what you just said I should do is what I've been planning on doing all along.

[M.SIGGA]

I agree that all the same respect should be given to all religious and priests.

[cmotherofpirl]

Praying for them is always your first response.

You can confront someone without attacking them.

If someone is committing a major abuse, there is no reason why you cannot ask for an explanation.

You could be wrong and there is a very simple explanation for whatever is taking place.

[Muschi]

This is an excellent thread!

I too happen to be struggling over how to deal with a non-diocesan order namely a Franciscan order who in their church, the priest receives communion only after everyone else has. I think this is wrong based on the fact that I've heard that the priest is to distribute communion along with EXTRA-ordinary ministers and not to cease doing so before they do, AND they are to recieve FIRST! But in this church, the priest receives AFTER every one else and receives communion from a lay person! This is scandalous in my opinion and I'm only a recent convert!!!

Would I really be doing justice not to further research and review our liturgical laws and question these priests/priest in private even if for my own edification? What about any scandal that may be caused by others? I know factually, that I'm not the only one. What to do? I don't want to condemn as I know that is not my place, but I do want to be constructive and possibly helpful! What IS a lay-person to do? - Muschi

[jasJis]

Dave & Muschi,

I wouldn't go to him with correcting him in mind. Go with an attitude of mutual enlightenment. IN Muschi's case, the priest could be tryng to witness "the last shall be first". If Muschi went to him, asking about why he does this, and in the conversation explain how it scandolizes him, the priest might reconsider. If Mushci goes trying to convince the priest is wrong, the priest will think it's Muschi's problem in misinterpreting him. It's human nature and applied phsycology. Throw in the Reflections Dave posted, and you can see how a human lay person is to approach a Priest, the Vicar of Christ, personally, and who our ultimate advocate is, the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

I have no problem coming to a priest with my concerns, but I don't go with the idea of me correcting him.

jasJis

[Norseman82]

His reasoning? This little blurb from the Pieta prayer book:

Hi Dave,

That may fall under the category "private revelations". CCC 67 speaks of it. The part that caught my eye: "Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or His saints to the Church."

I guess as long as we work "within the system" our consciences should be clear.

[Dave]

Hi Dave,

That may fall under the category "private revelations". CCC 67 speaks of it. The part that caught my eye: "Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or His saints to the Church."

I guess as long as we work "within the system" our consciences should be clear.

Yeah, Norseman, you're right about that.

But even so, I'd say that what was said, even if the apparition was false, still makes a ton of sense.

[aByzantineCatholic]

I say RUN away from that Church and don't look back. If you can't find another Catholic Church then:

1. Pray

2. Kindly and respectfully present the GRIM to him and show him the abuses.

3. If 2 doesn't work then write the Bishop.

4. If 3 doesn't work then write the Vatican. Believe it or not they do respond.

5. Don't give the Church money if they are using it build "Ugly as Sin" buildings. Rather give your money to EWTN or some other Catholic Charity.

Just My Two Cents!

[jasJis]

aB,

That's just sad.

Never leave a Church unless it's spirtually destroying you and always seek council from another priest you trust. Leaving shows lack of faith or trust in the institution of the Church, abandons the community, denies your positive contributions to the spiritual welfare of the community.

Never assume you know more than a priest and insist he is commiting an abuse. Approach it as a question and ask for their side of it. To do otherwise is prideful, uncharitable, and shows a lack of belief in the graces of the Holy Spirit bestowed on a Priest through Ordination.

Never stop giving money to a Church. They aren't all on a building campaign and you only hurt the ministries of the Church, it does nothing to change the choice of architecture or art.

Edited February 8, 2004 by jasJis

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

Dave,

Don't confront him. I am quite sickened by the way priests are being attacked now, with noboy praying for them. In my parish, the priest is attacked, challanged, under-mined, gossipped about, etc., but I don't see any one praying FOR him. Lay people attacking priests is why dUSt's parish doesn't have a priest.

And don't be running off to a different parish. All that means is you refuse to even consider him a priest and that you won't pray for him. If some things really bother you, ask to meet with him, tell him you have liturgical questions, and bring them up as honest, non-attacking questions. At best, you can hope to get him to start thinking about your questions. You can do this without challenging the authority and rights he has a priest and pastor, that are a consequence of the grace of his ordination. Keep the Pieta prayers in mind you posted.

I think the biggest challenge to priests, and the reason why so few answer the call, is the disrespect lay people now have towards the priesthood. Please don't add to the problem. If we don't respect the authority of a priest in our midst, do you really believe we can respect what the GIRM and Magesterium really are?

Nicely put. Our priests sure are under pressure.

[p0lar_bear]

I think whether or not you should approach him depends on several factors, such as your relationship with him, whether you think the abuses are accidental or intentional, etc. Also, it depends on how bad the abuse is. If he's changing the words of consecration, I think you definitely need to speak up, even going to the bishop if necessary. If you think he's using too many lay ministers or he puts the announcements in the wrong place, maybe it's better to let it slide. Either way, any problems should be handled charitably and without attack.

I agree with jasJis that you should not leave a parish, much less your rite, lightly or without serious reason.

However, I do not agree that the laity should not approach their pastors when they see abuses. I think that boarders on clericalism. The laity can address concerns with their pastor without attacking, judging or undermining.

The Church provides:

By reason of the knowledge, competence, or pre-eminence which they have, the laity are empowered—indeed sometimes obliged—to manifest their opinion on those things which pertain to the good of the Church. If the occasion should arise, this should be done through the institutions established by the Church for that purpose, and always with truth, courage, and prudence, and with reverence and charity toward those who, by reason of their office, represent the person of Christ (Lumen Gentium, no. 37).

[Dave]

Look, y'all, I never said I was going to attack anyone!

And polar, why do you feel approaching priests about abuses borders on clericalism?