p0lar_bear Posted February 10, 2004 Posted February 10, 2004 Look, y'all, I never said I was going to attack anyone! And polar, why do you feel approaching priests about abuses borders on clericalism? I meant that it boardered on clericalism to say that one can never approach a priest regarding an abuse. Also, I did not mean to imply that you were going to attack your priest, it's more of a general caution. I'm sorry if I was unclear.
PhatPhred Posted February 10, 2004 Posted February 10, 2004 Never assume you know more than a priest and insist he is commiting an abuse. Approach it as a question and ask for their side of it. To do otherwise is prideful, uncharitable, and shows a lack of belief in the graces of the Holy Spirit bestowed on a Priest through Ordination. These are truly words to live by. Perhaps the following books will help in the application of this excellent advice to liturgical issues: Disputed Questions in the Liturgy Today by Fr. John M. Huels, OSM, JCD More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy by Fr. John M. Huels, OSM, JCD Fr. Huels is a leading canon lawyer (JCD = Doctor of Canon Law) and liturgical scholar.
Dave Posted February 10, 2004 Author Posted February 10, 2004 I meant that it boardered on clericalism to say that one can never approach a priest regarding an abuse. Also, I did not mean to imply that you were going to attack your priest, it's more of a general caution. I'm sorry if I was unclear. No, it's my fault. I missed the word "not" in the previous post. I'm such an idiot, sorry. (blushes)
Dave Posted February 10, 2004 Author Posted February 10, 2004 Actually, PhatPhred and jasJis, I've done my research. I've made sure to see what the GIRM says and stuff. That's a huge reason why it's taking me so long to speak to this priest -- I'm trying to gather all the relevant quotes from the GIRM.
PhatPhred Posted February 10, 2004 Posted February 10, 2004 Actually, PhatPhred and jasJis, I've done my research. I've made sure to see what the GIRM says and stuff. That's a huge reason why it's taking me so long to speak to this priest -- I'm trying to gather all the relevant quotes from the GIRM. The most important document as regards the liturgy today is of course Vatican II's Constitution SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM on the Sacred Liturgy. I would strongly recommend that you become very familiar with it before you confront the priest in question. For example: But in order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects, it is necessary that the faithful come to it with proper dispositions, that their minds should be attuned to their voices, and that they should cooperate with divine grace lest they receive it in vain. Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects.
cmotherofpirl Posted February 10, 2004 Posted February 10, 2004 It depends on what the priest is doing. Some abuses are totally blatent. Dave what abuse do you think your priest is committing?
Dave Posted February 10, 2004 Author Posted February 10, 2004 It depends on what the priest is doing. Some abuses are totally blatent. Dave what abuse do you think your priest is committing? -- in the penitential rite he omits forms A or B and in its place uses the Kyrie (not Form C where it's said, for example, "You are seated at the right hand of the Father; Lord have mercy . . . -- rather, the same kind that's said after Forms A and B of the penitential rite) -- at the Spanish Masses he has an altar server (not a priest or deacon) read the Gospel and give the homily (although Father can and does speak Spanish) -- he has said altar server prepare the bread and wine right at the start of the offertory -- he combines the "Blessed are You, Lord God of all creation . . . " prayers over the bread and wine into one prayer -- he fails to genuflect after the consecration of the Host -- he only genuflects after the consecration of the chalice AFTER saying "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith -- he has the altar server assist him in elevating the Host and the chalice at the elevation at the Great Amen, when only a priest or deacon is allowed to do that -- in the Spanish Masses he has the altar server introduce the Our Father and say the "Deliver us, O Lord . . . " prayer after it -- he breaks the Host when he says "Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles . . . " when it's supposed to be done before the "Lord I am not worthy," and of course, he doesn't say the prayer that goes with breaking the Host either -- he leaves the sanctuary during the Sign of Peace -- when he says "This is the Lamb of God who . . . " right before the "Lord I am not worthy," he says "Happy are WE who are called to His supper" rather than "Happy are THEY" -- when he receives Communion, he says "The Body and the Blood of Christ" when he's supposed to say in a low voice "May the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ bring me to everlasting life" -- at the final blessing, instead of saying "May God bless you the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," he says "May God bless you and all yours in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit *BTW, some of the abuses, like the wording changes, I could live with if they were the only abuse in the Mass. But I can't ignore them simply because they're just one of MANY abuses.
jasJis Posted February 11, 2004 Posted February 11, 2004 Dave, Many of those abuses are SERIOUS, some are questionable if they aren't. I would say you definitely should do something. Can I make a few suggestions? Instead of going to him "Locked and Loaded", play dumb. Come to him with a question on a very serious issue, and a one that you might have thought is an abuse but learned it isn't. The second one will let him save respect. Come to him and ask about it, saying it bothers you and you believe it is wrong and against the proscribed rubrics. Ask him to explain himself. Don't let him know you researched it completely and have already made a decision. Ask penetrating questions. The goal is for him to quote documents or sources for his reasoning. Accept his explaination, but let him know you're still unsure and would like to refer to to the resources he cited. Wait a week, and meet with him again. Show that you researched it and found he was right on one point (and you are thankful for his time helping you) but your research still leads you to disagree on the other. Depending on the conversation, you can bring up another abuse to discuss. Your goal is to encourage him to be more attentive to proper rubrics without coming off as the local "liturgy nazi" that he can dismiss as being too fussy. You are coming as a member of the congregation that has concerns and are looking for him to fulfill his role as pastor and help you work on your concerns because they are affecting your spiritual faith. Approach is a great word, and we should always be willing to approach a priest in a respectful way that is cognizent of his authority AND his responsiblity. Confront seems like it is dismissive of his authority and you can cause a priest to focus on the attack on his authority and not bring proper perspective to your questions and concern about fulfilling his responsibility. It's not whether you should or shouldn't discuss this with him, but all about HOW you do so. Maybe your priest friend can help you come up with a plan that will be effective. From experience, only after you attempt to work things out properly with your pastor, will the Bishop pay attention to it. A Bishop get's thousands of complaints every year from every disgruntled Catholic that can write, call, or e-mail. You don't want to come off as a kook or just another mal-content that has no respect. If you can show that you have done everything you can, with full respect for the priest's authority, then I think the Bishop (or his staff) will not easily dismiss you. (And know that I will pray for you and your parish priest that God's grace will help you both.)
cmotherofpirl Posted February 11, 2004 Posted February 11, 2004 Playing dumb is always a good first approach. THere might be some simple explanation.
Dave Posted February 11, 2004 Author Posted February 11, 2004 Instead of going to him "Locked and Loaded", play dumb. Come to him with a question on a very serious issue, and a one that you might have thought is an abuse but learned it isn't. The second one will let him save respect. Come to him and ask about it, saying it bothers you and you believe it is wrong and against the proscribed rubrics. Ask him to explain himself. Don't let him know you researched it completely and have already made a decision. Ask penetrating questions. The goal is for him to quote documents or sources for his reasoning. Accept his explaination, but let him know you're still unsure and would like to refer to to the resources he cited. Wait a week, and meet with him again. Show that you researched it and found he was right on one point (and you are thankful for his time helping you) but your research still leads you to disagree on the other. Depending on the conversation, you can bring up another abuse to discuss. Your goal is to encourage him to be more attentive to proper rubrics without coming off as the local "liturgy nazi" that he can dismiss as being too fussy. You are coming as a member of the congregation that has concerns and are looking for him to fulfill his role as pastor and help you work on your concerns because they are affecting your spiritual faith. Approach is a great word, and we should always be willing to approach a priest in a respectful way that is cognizent of his authority AND his responsiblity. Confront seems like it is dismissive of his authority and you can cause a priest to focus on the attack on his authority and not bring proper perspective to your questions and concern about fulfilling his responsibility. It's not whether you should or shouldn't discuss this with him, but all about HOW you do so. Maybe your priest friend can help you come up with a plan that will be effective. From experience, only after you attempt to work things out properly with your pastor, will the Bishop pay attention to it. A Bishop get's thousands of complaints every year from every disgruntled Catholic that can write, call, or e-mail. You don't want to come off as a kook or just another mal-content that has no respect. If you can show that you have done everything you can, with full respect for the priest's authority, then I think the Bishop (or his staff) will not easily dismiss you. (And know that I will pray for you and your parish priest that God's grace will help you both.) Actually, I'm ahead of you there, jasJis. I've been intending to play dumb all along! :D
Jake Huether Posted February 11, 2004 Posted February 11, 2004 Wow! Dave, dude, I thought I had it bad... Prayer and fasting. Prayer and fasting. The Priest knows what he's doing. I don't think you need to play dumb. There are gentle and respecatble ways of dialoguing with him. But don't go without God first confirming your mission. Ask God to guide you. If you are not sure, ask for another sign. My prayers are with you, as I fight along side you at my Parish.
Dave Posted February 11, 2004 Author Posted February 11, 2004 Wow! Dave, dude, I thought I had it bad... Prayer and fasting. Prayer and fasting. The Priest knows what he's doing. I don't think you need to play dumb. There are gentle and respecatble ways of dialoguing with him. But don't go without God first confirming your mission. Ask God to guide you. If you are not sure, ask for another sign. My prayers are with you, as I fight along side you at my Parish. Thanks, Jake; that really means a lot. My prayers are with you too, fellow soldier of Christ!
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