Why Are Protestants So Fixed On The Resurrected Jesus?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1358786' date='Aug 14 2007, 03:39 PM']I think yall have this one covered, but we focus on Christ resurrected because he conquered death. No longer are we held to the law, but we are saved by the blood of Christ! This is why we focus on Christ resurrected more, than the suffering Christ.[/quote]


Why does it have to be one over the other. There is no resurrection without first taking up the cross and dying. They all have their place in the path of salvation. The cross as a symbol is valuable for us because it represents our lives. Sometimes we are carrying a cross and sometimes we are even dying on it. A crusifix tells us that as bad as we have it someone had it worse and knows our pain more than Bill Clinton. It is a symbol of perseverence to the nth degree. Of course we look forward to the resurrection afterward! That is our hope. AMEN!

[cappie]

When I look upon the crucifix I like to think of the following by William Penn:

"No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown."

[desertwoman]

I have no qualms with the crucifix, and focusing on Christ's passion. I guess the misunderstanding between us is that we both think that we are leaving out the other. Protestants think that you are leaving out the conquering of death, and Catholics think that we are leaving out Christ's redemptive suffering for our sins.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1358816' date='Aug 14 2007, 05:01 PM']I have no qualms with the crucifix, and focusing on Christ's passion. I guess the misunderstanding between us is that we both think that we are leaving out the other. Protestants think that you are leaving out the conquering of death, and Catholics think that we are leaving out Christ's redemptive suffering for our sins.[/quote]

Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. How can it be any more clear. We say this at every single mass.

[Starets]

Non sequitur, budge. Again

A cross without a bearer is a burden without a reliever

[desertwoman]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1358824' date='Aug 14 2007, 06:39 PM']Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. How can it be any more clear. We say this at every single mass.[/quote]


Right on. We believe the same thing, so whats the dilly o?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1357725' date='Aug 12 2007, 10:07 PM']Yeah ... so that's why. They think we focus too much on Jesus' sacrifice and not enough on the resurrection, pointing to these verses. That was a major Protestant criticism of "The Passion".

However, most Protestant churches have a paltry understanding of suffering. We need to view the suffering and resurrection of Christ in tandem; for it is through his suffering that we can become like Christ and be raised with him.[/quote]

"When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." - 1 Cor 2:1-2

That's my best answer to accusations that we focus too much on Christ crucified.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1359246' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:03 PM']"When I came to you, brothers, proclaiming the mystery of God, I did not come with sublimity of words or of wisdom. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified." - 1 Cor 2:1-2

That's my best answer to accusations that we focus too much on Christ crucified.[/quote]
I find in the Catholic Church a balanced approach, dealing with the totality of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ, each of which is an essential component of our faith. "Focusing" on any of them to the exclusion or diminution of the others is a faulty understanding of faith. Not that there isn't a time to contemplate suffering and a time to contemplate resurrection, but it is a complete package. I love how every week we are to celebrate a mini-Good Friday through Easter, thinking through the Passion and Resurrection of Christ.

I think it's clear from looking at the Church calendar and listening to every Mass in which the mystery of faith is proclaimed that we have an overall balanced view of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1359270' date='Aug 15 2007, 01:53 PM']I find in the Catholic Church a balanced approach, dealing with the totality of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ, each of which is an essential component of our faith. "Focusing" on any of them to the exclusion or diminution of the others is a faulty understanding of faith. Not that there isn't a time to contemplate suffering and a time to contemplate resurrection, but it is a complete package. I love how every week we are to celebrate a mini-Good Friday through Easter, thinking through the Passion and Resurrection of Christ.

I think it's clear from looking at the Church calendar and listening to every Mass in which the mystery of faith is proclaimed that we have an overall balanced view of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ.[/quote]
Oh, of course I agree. Certainly, in fact, St. Paul wasn't saying that he preached the Cross of Christ apart from the Resurrection. They simply can't be divided or else the entire ethic, the dynamism, the mystery, the sacramental nature, and the concept of divine love itself collapse.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1359274' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:57 PM']Oh, of course I agree. Certainly, in fact, St. Paul wasn't saying that he preached the Cross of Christ apart from the Resurrection. They simply can't be divided or else the entire ethic, the dynamism, the mystery, the sacramental nature, and the concept of divine love itself collapse.[/quote]
I knew you agreed. I was just augmenting.


My view on the whole Protestant take on the suffering of Christ is that a) I think that there is some level of aversion to contemplating and participating in the sufferings of Christ, and b) I think it is rooted in anti-Catholicism. I don't say this to be argumentative but I do think there is a widespread unwillingness to meditate on Christ's sufferings. This is not, obviously, going to be true for every single Protestant or every single denomination, but it is there. And I think it comes from the rejection of Catholicism and the Crucifix as a Catholic symbol.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1359278' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:06 PM']I knew you agreed. I was just augmenting.
My view on the whole Protestant take on the suffering of Christ is that a) I think that there is some level of aversion to contemplating and participating in the sufferings of Christ, and b) I think it is rooted in anti-Catholicism. I don't say this to be argumentative but I do think there is a widespread unwillingness to meditate on Christ's sufferings. This is not, obviously, going to be true for every single Protestant or every single denomination, but it is there. And I think it comes from the rejection of Catholicism and the Crucifix as a Catholic symbol.[/quote]
I would concur, from what other Protestants and former Protestants have told me. I hear, in fact, that this is a key explanation for the rapture: escapism.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1359280' date='Aug 15 2007, 01:08 PM']I would concur, from what other Protestants and former Protestants have told me. I hear, in fact, that this is a key explanation for the rapture: escapism.[/quote]
Oh, totally. There is not, as I said earlier, an adequate theology of suffering (which I translate as an inadequate understanding of God's providence). As such, there's not as much ability to see the redemptive aspects of suffering. The concept of rapture grows directly out of this, and out of the idea that God would not want those he loves to suffer. It's almost as though some people have never read the Old Testament (Job). It's an idealism that does not match up with the facts of life as know them (not the birds and the bees but the rest of it).

(Again, blanket statement that may or may not apply in particular cases ... I know some Protestants who actually do have a conception of redemptive suffering.)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It is interesting to note that Christianity is really the only religion that does see suffering in a positive light. I would say it's one of our main points. So I wonder what long-term effect a lack of this aspect will have on Protestantism. Personally, I would predict a widespread falling away. If you think the Eternal Father would never allow His children to suffer, but you suffer anyway (as we all do), then it can only mean you fall away (much of mainstream Protestantism), try to mask the suffering with stoic workaholism (Calvinism), try to drown out the suffering by indulging temptations and not adding to the suffering of the Christian life, especially by claiming that the more you sin, the more Christ is glorified (Lutheranism).

Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, I don't know, but it is interesting to see how theological principles effect general attitudes and dispositions.

[White Knight]

You cannot have the Resurrection without going through the Good Friday First, thats what our seperated brethern need to realize, not only do we celebrate the Resurrected Lord, but we place a great balance on the two major events.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1359292' date='Aug 15 2007, 01:23 PM']It is interesting to note that Christianity is really the only religion that does see suffering in a positive light. I would say it's one of our main points. So I wonder what long-term effect a lack of this aspect will have on Protestantism. Personally, I would predict a widespread falling away. If you think the Eternal Father would never allow His children to suffer, but you suffer anyway (as we all do), then it can only mean you fall away (much of mainstream Protestantism), try to mask the suffering with stoic workaholism (Calvinism), try to drown out the suffering by indulging temptations and not adding to the suffering of the Christian life, especially by claiming that the more you sin, the more Christ is glorified (Lutheranism).

Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, I don't know, but it is interesting to see how theological principles effect general attitudes and dispositions.[/quote]
Well, that was one of the main things that caused me to seriously question faith and take a two-ish year sabbatical. I went from a very sheltered (in retrospect) Christian upbringing smack into covering police and courts and the two did not mix. I think the prevalent view is not quite health-and-wealth theology (although that does exist) but something not too far from it. I knew people who believed that any suffering they went through was a sign that God had it in for them and that they were doing something wrong (ala Job's friends). While that's a fringe-ish belief, I don't think most people's conceptions of faith are that far off from it.

That's one of the reasons that I came to love Catholicism so much, because it offered a well-thought-out, Biblically-based theology of suffering, something that fit not only the world I saw but also the Bible I knew. So for me, when I see a Crucifix, I don't stop at the suffering ... I see God incarnate suffering along with humanity to create a means for us to have new life. The cross and the suffering Christ give meaning to the suffering we all endure, and I find great beauty and comfort in that.

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='Budge' post='1357978' date='Aug 13 2007, 06:43 AM']Lets say your best friend, is beaten bloody, but somehow survives....{not equated Jesus resurrection with chance but youll see what I mean}

You spend time with your friend, and he comes over to your house and notices you have new gold-lilt frame pictures on the wall, they are of him bleeding, broken and laying in the alley where the gang beat the tar out of him, police photos that you got a hold of.

Is this showing love for your friend?

{the answer is NO}

After I was born again, and came into an actual relationship with Jesus Christ, knowing and loving Him, I ripped down the crucifix I owned and later threw it in the trash can. Same as I would rip down the above police photos. I know what Jesus Christ suffered for me but know that by rising again, He had victory over sin and death. That is one thing that creeps me out about Catholic crucifixes [b]they ALL SHOW JESUS dead [/b]with his head slumped over. I think they are satanic.

[img]http://gary2idaho.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/crucifix-full1.jpg[/img][/quote]

BUDGE! Youre back! Havnt seen you in a while. How are ya?

Anyway, your analogy is sliiiiiightly off. Check it:

Jesus wasnt just some best friend who took a beating and some other person lived. A more appropriate analogy would be that someone was going to shoot you in the face and Jesus and Jesus took the bullet. And even better anology would be the what Maximilian Kolbe did in Awshwitz. The Nazi's were going to sentence a man who had a family to death-by-starvation but Maximilian Kolbe stepped up and offered to go in his place because he was a priest and had no family ties. Continuing on, what Jesus was saving us from was not a beating or a bullet or even starvation, but from the eternal seperation from God. An eternity of death. And this wasnt death forced onto us by other people, but a punishment we brought on ourselves by the fall and by our sin. It is was debt we rightly owed. Except it was so incalcuably LARGE it was never in human power to be able to justly repay it.

God obviously knew this and loves us so much, all of us, that he decided to pay off our debt [i]for us[/i]. The pain and suffering that Jesus went through - that should be us! Those are our sins that are he is enduring. There is no greater form of love in all of time and the universe than what took place during the passion and the cross. We should never forget what Jesus did for us. That is why we have crucifixes everywhere. Don't be ignorant, like some people, and ever say that we have forgotten about the Resurrection. Its intrinsictly linked to the cross. The resurrection and eternal life and the LOVE of God for us insignificant, worthless-on-our-own beings are the "why" for the cross's "what". Also dont be ignorant and think that Jesus doesnt want us to think about and pray about what he went through. He absolutely wants us to know what he did and why. Not to give us some sense of crazy guilt but so that we can know how much was at stake, how much he loves us, and how important we are in his eyes.

I hope this makes sense. God Bless!

Edited August 16, 2007 by Sirklawd

[T-Bone _]

If Jesus died of old age, would our sins have been forgiven?

It was his suffering that redeemed us.

[Budge]

d
[quote]I have no qualms with the crucifix, and focusing on Christ's passion. I guess the misunderstanding between us is that we both think that we are leaving out the other. Protestants think that you are leaving out the conquering of death, and Catholics think that we are leaving out Christ's redemptive suffering for our sins.[/quote]

I still know of Christ's redemptive suffering for our sins, I just dont think the second commandment should be broken as a reminder.

Hebrews 6:6 applies to the Catholic crucifix.

-[quote]-
Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. How can it be any more clear. We say this at every single mass.[/quote]

So why are 99% of the crucifixes in your church focused on the first sentence/

And considering how many Catholics here scoff at Revelation like it wont really happen, I really wonder about the profession that Christ will come again, if its really believed or not.
A Christian can acknowledge what Jesus Christ has done for them without plastering the walls with images of Jesus Christ bloodied and dead. {breaking the 2nd commandment}

In fact the Bible doesnt share many details about the crucifixiction for a reason when that horrible movie the Passion, made sure to emphasis every gory imagined detail.

[quote]I hear, in fact, that this is a key explanation for the rapture: escapism.[/quote]

When Noah and his family were saved from the flood in the ark, where they escapists?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Budge' post='1360130' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:22 PM']I still know of Christ's redemptive suffering for our sins, I just dont think the second commandment should be broken as a reminder.[/quote]

Budge,

How is having a crucifix tantamount to worshiping an idol? It is a representation of Jesus, our Lord and Saviour, but the image itself is not worshiped. Instead the image is used [i]in [/i]worship (not as an object [i]of [/i]worship) to remind us of His suffering, and also to remind us of the outcome of that suffering - our salvation.

[quote name='Budge' post='1360130' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:22 PM']Hebrews 6:6 applies to the Catholic crucifix.[/quote]

No, it doesn't. Here is the verse in context (Hebrews 6:4-6, NASB)
[quote]4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.[/quote]

It is talking about those who have professed Christ as their Lord, and then have denied Christ, turning completely away from their faith. Such a person is, in a sense, recrucifying Christ by making a mockery of Him in their absolute rejection of Christ, since they had once fully embraced Christ.

Simply showing a crucifix does not recrucify Jesus, it is a visual representation showing the ultimate sacrifice that He made.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[Archaeology cat]

double post

Edited August 16, 2007 by Archaeology cat