Christians Are Still Being Presecuted By Catholics

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372653' date='Aug 28 2007, 07:05 PM']Where did you get that stuff, or is that from your caricature of a fundies in your head.[/quote]I don't know about everyone else, but my imagination couldn't even produce a "fundy caricature" that was as far out in left field as Budge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

QUOTE
On other boards "I believe" Budge has stated wearing slacks, jewerly etc... is evil, correct me if I am wrong, Budge.


[quote]What does this have to do with the topic at hand?[/quote]

It has everything to do with the topic at hand. With fundies it is either black or white, with no grey in between.

[quote]Where did you get that stuff, or is that from your caricature of a fundies in your head. I haven't talked about either issue on here at all. I believe in modest dress and for a woman that can be pants....depending on the circumstances.[/quote]

There are baptists and pentecostal who I know personally that won't wear pants/slacks and no jewerly. Some women won't even cut /style their hair or wear make-up, for fear of being labeled a JEZEBEL by their pastor.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372645' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:59 PM']Well going by your logic, then Americans could burn down Catholic churches {not defending this behavior at all like you are!!} since they came to a Prot nation!

Cant you see what youre defending here? What is wrong with you fella? People that committ arson, over someone saying something they dont "like" are THUGS.

Oh by the way there are Bible Christians born again, and living for Christ and rejecting paganism who are NOT AMERICANS and many are indeed Latin American, a weird hole in your logic that seems to be constantly cropping up.[/quote]
American culture is very different than Mexican culture. It is by nature pluralistic, whilst Mexican culture is much more homogenous. Homogenous societies react very badly when their sons and daughters are made to hate their own culture by outsiders who think their culture is better. Besides, Catholics are not attacking American protestant culture, nor any culture of any protestant nation, they are not destroying it the way your missionaries are. we're want them to convert and bring their unique experience and culture as Americans into the Church of Jesus Christ. your missionaries want the latin americans to break all ties with their towns' festivals and traditions, reject everything about their culture that you think is strange by convincing them it is pagan, heathenous, and evil.

It is not a hole in my logic, the latin americans you speak of are being deceived by missionaries like these; really, they're getting sucked into the paradigm of capitalism more often than not, being currupted by the influence media and big business have all over the world which causes them to reject what their parents raised them to believe and seek out something different. this vulnerability is preyed upon by protestant missionaries who wrench them completely out of their culture and teach them to believe that it is evil and pagan. why is it that it is not until now, when every culture in the world is breaking apart due to the media's influence, your protestant missionaries have finally started having success in getting latin americans to follow their heresies? seems plain to me; we can see it everywhere: in arabia a homogenous culture is being torn apart because of the influence of the market of western civilization making each generation more and more like us and less and less like their parents, which is why there is such a huge backlash against them.

[quote name='prose' post='1372657' date='Aug 28 2007, 07:11 PM']I am not upset because they are not Catholic. Just because you call yourself something does not make one that. If someone is not in line with Rome and is not practicing Catholicism, they are not Catholic. No matter what they call themselves. You said yourself they are practicing some sort of pagan religion mixed with Catholicism. That is not Catholic, and therefore they are not Catholic.

They are not my "co-religionist".[/quote]
I am working off the not-too-far-off assumption that these are indeed Catholics, and that the fundies see the fact that they maintain their culture as evidence that they are "pagan"; you know, the way Christmas is pagan. They call them pagan because of their day of the dead practices, hardly true. they are your co-religionists. but I could be wrong, there does exist some stuff like santeria that would make them indeed not our co-religionists, but heretical thorns in our side. but to a fundy missionary, it all seems pagan, including the day of the dead (which is really just a good festival very poignent around All Souls Day.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i agree with you Al. i know Santeria is practiced in mexico, but it is so small that it doesn't show up on any census, and is not even reported.


Fundementalists have always claimed that Catholicism (in itself) is part pagan (christmas, Easter, Halloween, Day of the dead, "saint Worship"), when in fact it is mostly about culture.

[mariahLVzJP2]

Great posts Aloysius!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1372811' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:06 PM']i agree with you Al. i know Santeria is practiced in mexico, but it is so small that it doesn't show up on any census, and is not even reported.[/quote]Just to be precise, Santeria is an Afro-Caribian religion. I would think any hint of syncretism in Mexico would be more with Mayan/Aztec beliefs.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

From what i understand, Santeria is practiced there, just not in large numbers. i have see no evidence of any other blend of Catholicism and Pagan beliefs.

[eperez874]

sorry but honoring the dead is an aztec culture. i lived in mexico and that is tru.
now what cnn is saying about catholic in yucatan and mexico is not true because it is not on our news. i was watching it and the guys who where speaking spanish never mentioned anything about the catholic church.

the communist guy who ran for presidency in mexico is trying to make a rebellion against people who opposes his idea he calls himself catholic
but he is comunist. they do not mention on cnn because they think this is all the doing of catholic church they always are trying to blame us. since i was a kid this news cast are liberals wityh no reason and trying to find out any news they can create.

once they also judge spain killing protestants which were not true.

they even called Cnn themselves anti catholic in mexico. when the pope came.
so we know their blah blah blah

in mexico there is always wars because of this communist guy. who causes problems to the catholic church becasue he calls himself catholic and he is going to make holy wars. because Jesus was communist that is what he said he is a heretic and a man with no respect for God.

[eperez874]

by the way day of the dead has nothing to do with the catholic church.
people added it as a catholic day but the catholic church never accepted because they know it is pagan made by the aztecs.

Edited August 29, 2007 by eperez874

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372049' date='Aug 27 2007, 08:30 PM']Where?

They were Hispanic, they were good Christians...and friends of mine. They were from Mexico and rejected Day of the Dead and the rest of it. I talked to them about this stuff. We had missionaries from all over in my church, not every Mexican defends these cultural "traditions"

Sheesh. What liberal PC code did I break this time without even realizing it?

[/quote]

1) You imply that because they are Hispanic, they would otherwise not be good Christians

2) Hispanic does not equal Mexican, nor does Mexican equal Hispanic.

And I am far from Liberal, nor am I into PC.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1372665' date='Aug 28 2007, 06:14 PM']I don't know about everyone else, but my imagination couldn't even produce a "fundy caricature" that was as far out in left field as Budge.[/quote]
Not mine, either. I have little experience with them outside this board, and so far Budge is painting a pretty gross picture.

[quote name='eperez874' post='1372944' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:30 PM']sorry but honoring the dead is an aztec culture. i lived in mexico and that is tru.
now what cnn is saying about catholic in yucatan and mexico is not true because it is not on our news. i was watching it and the guys who where speaking spanish never mentioned anything about the catholic church.

the communist guy who ran for presidency in mexico is trying to make a rebellion against people who opposes his idea he calls himself catholic
but he is comunist. they do not mention on cnn because they think this is all the doing of catholic church they always are trying to blame us. since i was a kid this news cast are liberals wityh no reason and trying to find out any news they can create.

once they also judge spain killing protestants which were not true.

they even called Cnn themselves anti catholic in mexico. when the pope came.
so we know their blah blah blah

in mexico there is always wars because of this communist guy. who causes problems to the catholic church becasue he calls himself catholic and he is going to make holy wars. because Jesus was communist that is what he said he is a heretic and a man with no respect for God.[/quote]
[quote name='eperez874' post='1372946' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:32 PM']by the way day of the dead has nothing to do with the catholic church.
people added it as a catholic day but the catholic church never accepted because they know it is pagan made by the aztecs.[/quote]
Interesting. Thanks for your point of view on this.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1372331' date='Aug 28 2007, 10:13 AM']You know what is interesting about this thread, is not one Catholic poster here is upset that their co-religionists are thugs out burning churches.

If I knew of fund. Baptists doing this Id be disgusted and have written threads on my board against Baptists behaving badly...

What is the deal with the folks here they feel they have to take the defensive position over everyone that is Catholic?[/quote]It's the cry wolf effect. You keep posting on here about all these apparently horrible things about Catholics and we defend them because we don't believe that they are horrible. Then, when an actual atrocity is committed by Catholics and you bring it up, we don't take it seriously and treat it like any other topic that you've made. Hence, muted reactions.

I'll also point out that you mentioned that they mix Catholocism with pagan beliefs/practices. Must of us wouldn't call the day of the dead(or something like that) anything more than a cultural tradition, so when you simply refer to it as a "pagan practice"(I admit to only skimming the article and therefore not seeing the actual mention of the Day of the Dead), we instinctively think of something like dancing around naked in front of a campfire and drinking goat's blood. That's not exactly in keeping with Catholic teachings, and therefore, at least I(and I suspect others too) at first assumed that they were about as Catholic as the clown church in California - not at all.

[kateri05]

[quote]sorry but honoring the dead is an aztec culture.[/quote]

so? its been baptized into a cultural way of celebrating all souls day. just like Christmas was. catholicism is all about inculturation, while taking care to avoid syncretism. sure, this could become "paganized," but so has Easter in the US. honoring the dead, remember one's family who has died very much fits into Catholic theology on the communion of saints.

i lived in mexico too and i saw this celebrated in a very pious way.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1373157' date='Aug 29 2007, 12:28 AM']so? its been baptized into a cultural way of celebrating all souls day. just like Christmas was. catholicism is all about inculturation, while taking care to avoid syncretism. sure, this could become "paganized," but so has Easter in the US. honoring the dead, remember one's family who has died very much fits into Catholic theology on the communion of saints.

i lived in mexico too and i saw this celebrated in a very pious way.[/quote]


So in your experience is the Day of the Dead Church sanctioned in Mexico? because that is what would make sense.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i don't think i've ever had a triple post haha

Edited August 29, 2007 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

same as above

Edited August 29, 2007 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[kateri05]

umm, i don't know.

i honestly don't have any knowledge of the mexican church hierarchy's stance or any statements on this, but i will say that knowing it can and is piously done, and often in conjunction with the parish level, i would be skeptical of hierarchical condemnation without any specific proof.

i will also say, that like Christmas and Easter in the states, the religious element of Day of the Dead can and is often ignored in the celebration and commercialization of the holiday, as society is increasingly secularized.

[Andreas E.]

I can't believe what I'm reading here. I have to side with Budge on this one. How can anyone condone and/or sympathize with violence against an outside group that does not fit in with the predominant folks in the name of "culture"??

The Reichskristallnacht (google it if you don't know what it is) was "celebrated" for the same reason. Plus, how did the Aztecs, Mayas and Incas feel when their close-knit families where broken up by the Conquistadores (not that I am condoning human sacrifices and the like, but the same argument applies nevertheless.)

Pope John Paul II argued and fought for freedom of religion behind the iron curtain (or at least that's what he is quoted as saying in the movie Cary Ewes.) What about his followers?

Plus, the churches in the article were destroyed because the members refused to pay a fee in connection with the dia de los muertes because they found the outright drunkeness put on display to be uncontionable, as should any good Catholic, too! Yet you are here defending this behavior as "culture"! Faith transcends culture. Just ask St. Paul what happened at Ephesus. Faith changed a town and the locals (especially those selling statues of Artemis) were NOT happy about it. St. Paul did not try to incorporate Artemis into the Catholic Faith, or did he?

I think some members of this forum are trying to graps at straws here to condone this violence against fellow human beings. It's not right any way you look at it. Just because Budge brought it up does not mean it can be dismissed off the bat.

[Aloysius]

I don't condone the violence, I merely understand it. it's not just an outside group, it's a group of ethnocentric fundamentalists who are attacking their faith and culture, anyone who was a member of such a culture would be upset by such a thing.

You have to understand that the "drunkenness" and "pagan" stuff being described is being described through the eyes of puritanical fundamentalists. Whilst I am sure that there is some excessive drinking that is wrong, that doesn't make the whole festival something not to be supported, and that doesn't justify these people condemning the whole festival as pagan.

St. Paul enculturated the gospel everywhere he went, he did not attempt to judaize people. The Day of the Dead celebrations are something good, this culture has been converted and focuses on Christ. It coincides with all souls day, when we should all remember and pray for our dead loved ones.

As Americans, we really can't understand what it's like to be part of a homogenous culture because we have been so saturated with pluralism. But when you are part of a homogenous culture, foreign outsiders like this are a threat to your entire society and way of life; and you'd fight tooth and nail to keep that from happening.

I understand that true evangelization of cultures causes divisions and stuff, but this is not true evangelization, this is a group of foreign missionaries which have preyed upon the current vulnerabilities in the culture to bring these people away from the true Church and into false ones.

[Andreas E.]

St. Paul attacked the status quo (predominant culture and religion) as well. In a peaceful way, just like these folks are.

Yes, I agree while St. Paul did not judaize where he went, however, he did not make the Temple of Artemis of the Ephesians into a church dedicated to St. Artemis either, or did he? Obviously he did not tolerate fornication, and so eventually the temple was shut down. Neither should Christians or Catholics tolerate drunkeness and everything that comes from it (lewd behavior, etc.)

I have seen supposedly Catholic festivals in Germany with the same displays of drunkenness, especially the two days before the beginning of Lent, all on the steps of the Archbishop of Cologne's cathedral. St. Martin's in fall is all about candy and money. The festival I do appreciate is the Jan 6 one when Catholic boys dressed up as the three wise men going around blessing homes.

The problem in Mexico, the US and Germany is the secularization of holidays. My protestant pastors have always preached against the commercialism of Christmas. I'm sure the local priests and he are on the same page on that one. Perhaps the priests in Chiapas should preach against this secularization as well. But it sounds like based on the report that if that were the case, the local Catholic Church would be the next one to be torched.