Pulling Out Of Iraq

[Aloysius]

[quote]Imo, I believe if the US leaves, the whole country will descend into utter chaos (more than it is now). You will have the Shi'ites and the Sunni's still going at each others throats. Then you have the Kurdish who want their own nation, within Iraqi and Turkish terrority, although I believe they have given up on the Turkish territory for Iraqi. But as we see of late, the Turks want to completely wipe the Kurdish off the face of the planet.[/quote]
IF they are going to fight it out, then let them fight it out. If the Kurds want their own nation and are going to fight for it, that's their business. Actually, they probably ought to have their own nation, there is no reason for them to be part of Iraq; but that's up to them to decide whether they want a united Iraq or various nations.

I am not so sure that our leaving will leave Iraq in total chaos, though, but either way, it is the proper course of action.

[quote]In the end I think it'll be upto what the US Govt and the Private-Industrial sector want Iraq to be.[/quote]

Unless Ron Paul gets elected.

[LoneYankee]

Note: Still working on report.

Ron Paul will not get past the primary. He is far too extreme for typical Republicans. HOWEVER, if you wish to debate this, start a new thread.

*lets everyone get back to the topic at hand as he continues*

[dairygirl4u2c]

i have been enlightened by this thread. about absolutists.

the following is just incidental cause i feel like writing. iraq needs to build it self up. a question is of course whether we stay or not to help them. but beside that, we were not wise to think it'd just pop up and be functining government.

cause if it's going to be a government of the people, they need to figure it out themselves. everyone has different views there. only until they realize the imperitive nature of democracy and majority vote, to settle disagreements, they will feel disenfranchised and rebel. (or if they are willing to settle for dictatorship, that's the perogative to rebel or not) we can try to educate them etc, but they will probably have to figure out how and what functinging governemnt means to them.

they can't just turn nto a functioning government overnight, as the people are not aware f how a good governmen would work. if the people are not aware, the government will not function as it ought as they are rebelling. it's a government of the people after all. the people are happy, the government is in chaos.

and even if we told them all about democracy, they'd probably have to learn it the hard way. much like a kid needs to learn htings themselves even while adults try to persuade them with advice.

it's not that they are just violent low lifes, as i often have a bias of labeling them. the same would happen here if we were trying to form, which did happen in our country. everyone has different views. a dictoratorship, probably, would only be the result of force, as most would id think want democracy but whatever happens happens. it's not just that they have different views on federalism etc, but also a fight about religion. and it's not just about that either, it's a fight to see who's perspective will reign, by might. and if that's the way it is, you may never have stability. it's very complicated when you think about it.
this isn't even including whatever religous beliefs they have.

[dairygirl4u2c]

yankee. not sure if your report involves what i asked for when i asked for facts. i think you have a reasonable position, and you don't need many facts to back that up.

it would be enlightening though if you have them.
but, i think most of the data that would actually prove much of anything would be classified.

Edited October 26, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

[quote name='LoneYankee' post='1409865' date='Oct 26 2007, 08:32 PM']Note: Still working on report.

Ron Paul will not get past the primary. He is far too extreme for typical Republicans. HOWEVER, if you wish to debate this, start a new thread.

*lets everyone get back to the topic at hand as he continues*[/quote]
read: he's far too conservative to "republican" neo-cons.

we'll see if he can get past the primary. I still have hope. Either way, I think he'll make it to the general election on someone's ticket, and will get a very visible percentage of the popular vote. I will probably vote for him no matter what.

anyway, again, it's really not about statistics or facts or opinion polls (though Ron Paul has received more donations from military personell than any other candidate for president), it's about proper theory of the purpose of government and the purpose of America.

[dairygirl4u2c]

like if you knew how many al queda there were. and if they are almost eradicated, that would be cruicial info to prov ea point. but i bet that'd be classified.

no mulsim nations like them, but i also hear the chaos is turning more to al queda.

it's a very multi faceted problem.

[LoneYankee]

Dairygirl, I will rebutt your statements in a couple of days when my report is complete. However, can I ask you to do a couple of things for the sake of my sanity?

1.) Please use proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc.

2.) Think about what you want to say. Put it all in the same post. Don't post three different messages. Especially when I haven't responded.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but your posting habits are aggrevating to say the least.

[Aloysius]

sorry dude, that's just dairygirl's style. you get used to it after a while. you even grow to like it

[dairygirl4u2c]

yeah i will try harder to speak clearer, but i won't promise anything. i always relapse.

what i'm getting at, i don't want you doing any reports or getting facts or whatever just for me. don't want you putting all that effort into it. if it's for school or something, i'd be glad to read it. or if you insist on gathering facts, sure whatever.
i might be mistaken what you're talking about with a "report".

[LoneYankee]

You wanted answers, I know them, it just takes forever to get the correct citations.

And Al, the U.S. didn't handle themselves during the Revolution. France was the reason Yorktown was possible. Interventialism made this country, my friend.

[Aloysius]

France's presence was nowhere ner as large and pervasive as the presence of the US in Iraq. Moreover, I'm not going to go around defending the actions of post-revolution France. And as Catholics, we believe the ends never justify the means, so you cannot prove to me the good of France's action by the ends (ie the stable US)... nor could you justify the US's presence in Iraq by showing that the ends will be good.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1409937' date='Oct 26 2007, 09:48 PM']France's presence was nowhere ner as large and pervasive as the presence of the US in Iraq. [b]Moreover, I'm not going to go around defending the actions of post-revolution France.[/b][/quote]
History lesson: That was [i]pre[/i]-revolutionary France (under His Most Catholic Majesty Louis XVI).
(And I've got no problem with France's alliance in the war.)

[Aloysius]

woops. haha. I knew that, too. ah well, should've just left it at France, I'm not going to go around defending the actions of France.

doesn't matter to me whether anyone has a problem with France's intervention in the American revolution. One would have to show that France had a justified role in the Revolutionary War based on just war doctrine. Frankly, I've never looked at it from that perspective, so I do not know if they did or not. But I won't just accept that because France intervened with us, we should intervene in other countries. But that's way off topic.

The topic is whether we have any just cause to remain in Iraq.

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1409606' date='Oct 26 2007, 09:56 AM']
I do so! It's a verb![/quote]
I stand corrected.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1409853' date='Oct 26 2007, 07:10 PM']If it becomes absolutely necessary to declare a defensive war (and yes, it must be a defensive war for it to be just)[/quote]
Defensive does not merely mean stopping invasion. One can travel around the world to defend or aid in the defense of others.

Anyone who thinks it's not our business doesn't understand how the world works, or how a large nation survives. The only nations who advocate non-interventionalism are those who can't interevene, or cannot on our level. Every nation does whatever it can to nudge, shove or topple every other nation in their favor. You stop playing the game, you get crushed and your people start dying.

France is a two-faced, jingoistic collection of ungrateful snobs.

And the language they're so proud of?

Altered to match their concept of classical language.

Take that, Frenchy!

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know if you're saying that the US intervening would be a bad mean fora good end. but, unlike france example,

yankee. if you have facts, i will be grateful. from my experience, though, peole get facts thinking they have proved something. usually, the more you know, the more qeustions you have, and usually people have only exposed more that they do not know. unless you have a really compelling facts or something. it'd be bad enough for you to waste time getting them for me, but even worse if they proved nothing....
maybe i should be more confident in your facts.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know if you're saying that the US intervening would be a bad mean fora good end. but, unlike france example, we actually caused the iraq problem.

you can't just be libertarian about necessarily, IMHO, as if it's the solution. cause we caused the prob in iraq. if you wanted to be to begin with libertarian and not invade, that's more reasonabe. if there's a chance we can help them though, i do not see how you can just brush aside the fact that we caused the problem.

[S][N]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1410086' date='Oct 27 2007, 10:00 AM']Defensive does not merely mean stopping invasion. One can travel around the world to defend or aid in the defense of others.

Anyone who thinks it's not our business doesn't understand how the world works, or how a large nation survives. The only nations who advocate non-interventionalism are those who can't interevene, or cannot on our level. Every nation does whatever it can to nudge, shove or topple every other nation in their favor. You stop playing the game, you get crushed and your people start dying.

France is a two-faced, jingoistic collection of ungrateful snobs.

And the language they're so proud of?

Altered to match their concept of classical language.

Take that, Frenchy![/quote]


Not according to your religion. You have a choice, your country or your Church. And we can clearly see so far that the Church doesn't seem to come close to the country in your eyes.

[Winchester]

[quote name='S][N' post='1410124' date='Oct 27 2007, 01:30 PM']
Not according to your religion. You have a choice, your country or your Church. And we can clearly see so far that the Church doesn't seem to come close to the country in your eyes.[/quote]
excerpt: 2309, bullet one, CCC: "The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave and certain."

I see nothing forbidding invasion, nor the defense of other nations. Perhaps you had a specific paragraph in mind, or were you relying on personal feelings or impressions?

I expect your use of "we" was in the royal sense, or do you presume as an atheist that you speak for your community. Perhaps you think you're speaking for all Phatmass, or for the entire world. Of course, it's probably based upon your opinion that just war theory forbids going outside one's borders to deal with a threat, or to defend or aid in the defense of other nations. Perhaps you've a newer version of the Catechism, or some other Church document which you would now care to produce or cite to support your most unusual assertion. I suppose it's also possible that you, after careful study of just war theory, have come to the conclusion that a nation may only defend its own borders, and must wait to be attacked on its own ground before dealing with another nation, or may not, no matter the atrocities, come to the aid of another. In you interpretation, our initial military actions against Japan were possibly justifiable, but we were in no way justifiable in dealing with Germany. I must say that France is especially grateful America does not subscribe to this notion of just war. I am profoundly grateful that the Catholic Church does not, by a reasonable interpretation, take this line of thought, either.

[S][N]

[url="http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/"]http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/[/url]

Quotations:

"The capture of Saddam Hussein may help bring peace to Iraq, but it [b]does not[/b] change the fact that "the war was useless, and served no purpose," a top Vatican official said." (Emphasis my own).

"The cardinal said he hopes Saddam's capture "contributes to peace and the reconstruction of Iraq. But it would be [i]illusory to think that it will repair the damage caused by that great defeat for humanity which war always represents[/i]." (Emphasis my own)

And at the top of the page you have the following title:

- "A Catholic Theologian's Argument for War."

----------------

We all know (those who don't get grinded through the right-wing propaganda machine) that Saddam was no threat to the US. He didn't have WMDs, support terrorism or anything else the US said he did to support their conquest.


Winchester...your what true catholics call a [i]supermarket catholic[/i]. You pick and choose, interpret and praise, agree and ignore what reflects your own personal agenda. You can use the self-defense claim all you like, but you know as much as anyone that, that is complete bull. Your own actions, your own foreign policy, your intervention in other peoples countries and governments caused this. YOUR own country sowed it's own self-destruction at the hands of the impoverished, the trotten and the maltreated.

Time for you to grow some balls as a country as a whole and face the crimes your administrations, one after another commited, just like how you push the Japanese to face their own atrocities in Korea, China and to countless other countries during wartimes.

You have a choice, be catholic and follow catholic teaching, follow your Pope, Cardinals and Bishops or don't and be a [i]supermarket catholic[/i].