Trusting Holy Scriptures Over The Church

[dairygirl4u2c]

i would recommend you using that site as a learning point. take the strongest points you can get from that website, and debate them here. you'll fail in all of them. fail in proving the CC necessarily flawed, that is. i'm sure you'll bring some doubt but that's the best you will do.

i know, cause those arguments are nothing new at all. especially here at phatmass, they've heard it all, trust me. there's always a reasonable answer.

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1390794' date='Sep 22 2007, 03:16 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUH4fu4NheQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUH4fu4NheQ[/url]

watch the whole video, what do you guys think?[/quote]
I think posting anti-catholic videos instead of answering people's objections is a bad way to try to get out of an argument:
1)If wearing purple makes your church the whore of babylon, the COGIC is the antichrist for requring it's bishops to wear scarlet shirts and pectoral crosses while preaching (The Anglican church also requires this of bishops and canons.)
2) If having rich people in your church makes you the whore of babylon,then most churches are the antichrist for having any measure of wealthy members .Especially the churches of rich televangelists,and the Anglican church for having a queen as head (Who often wears gold and expensive jewels.Not to mention,the tower of London treasury holdsa one of the worlds largest diamonds,which is set in the crown used for George V's coronation)
3) A monarch as head: Need I say more? The english monarch is considered the head of the church in england,and Luther set up german princes to rule his church.
these are but a few.You should see by now,that these prophecies are so vague,that I could make the Anglican church the antichrist.
4) Between Pius X and JP II inclusive,there were EIGHT Popes.
Please try again,with better facts, and a real argument.

[Deo Iuvente]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1390817' date='Sep 22 2007, 03:54 PM']that's the only reason why i consider it the whore in revelation

it all fits the description..[/quote] Please.

[quote]"drunken with the blood of the saints"[/quote] Like martin luther and john calvin commending amd commanding the wholesale slaighter of anabaptists? Like Oliver Cromwell's killing and selling into slavery of catholics in the siege of drodhega,and the siege of of wexley? Like the english monarchs calling catholicism a crime,and making martyrs like Margaret clitherow,Edmund Campion,Sir thomas moore?May I remind you that between 1535 and 1681,Over 600 catholics were killed in england and wales alone?

[quote]the catholic church persecuted millions throughout history[/quote] Prove please,thank you.
[quote].. their crime? reading the bible.[/quote]
1) Prove please,thank you.
2)name some,name some places,name where it happened and who did it,and explain why the catholic church was not only encouraging bible reading as early as the fourteenth century,but HOW people were reading it when the literacy rate was less than ten percent. And why the church was printing bibles for the laity?

[quote]just look into it.

start by looking at the contradictions.[/quote]
I see no contradictions.I see verses taken out of context,eisegised, and non existent quotes from the catechism.

[Starets]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1390817' date='Sep 22 2007, 04:54 PM']the catholic church persecuted millions throughout history.. their crime? reading the bible.

just look into it.

start by looking at the contradictions.[/quote]

I have.
I would like you to document your claim that the Catholic church has persecuted millions throughout history for reading the Bible, using books from academic publishing houses or journal articles in peer reviewed journals. Hurling even MORE accusations does not constitute proof of earlier accusations.

Compare and contrast the treatment given to Galileo in Rome with the treatment given to Servetus in Geneva and get back to me.

[ckozlowski]

if anybody wants to learn more about what i have said, you can learn much from those two sites. or, if you simply want fellowship, you can call me at [mod] no phone numbers, please. -- HSM [/mod]

it's not my job to make you believe, i'm just here to present it.

God bless

[Starets]

Give thou me a break!

Young man, part of presenting something is backing it up and providing reasoned arguments to defend it. "presenting" things isnt the same as hurling acusations. I for one am sick of it.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1390868' date='Sep 22 2007, 06:32 PM']if anybody wants to learn more about what i have said, you can learn much from those two sites. or, if you simply want fellowship, you can call me at [mod] edit [/mod]

it's not my job to make you believe, i'm just here to present it.

God bless[/quote]


Theology is not a game. This is not us debating if the vikings or packers have a better pass rush. This is your soul. This is your life. You are using a b-rate youtube video to attack a 2000 year old church? The church was around before you, and she will be here after you. I was hoping that you would be different Chris. That you would actually read the posts and work with the objections. Instead of the shot-gun post and dont respond. It is strange. The ones who read and are open end up as catholics. The list is many. Most of us had formal evangelical training. I, myself, would put my training against most of your teachers. But in doing pure theology, and seeking the truth you will end up as a catholic. Only way to avoid that is to avoid the logic, and put things in the way.

trusting the "whore of babylon" argument is not something I would stake my soul on. Please, stay. Go ahead and make a list of your objections and lets stay on track. You can make a thread and request 1 person and just dialogue (Budge has done this with people) actually work with your objections. If they are legit than testing them will only make them stronger.

I know there are plenty of people that would take you up on that offer Chris.

[ckozlowski]

sounds good rev but i can't devote as much time as i'd like to in a forum. i'm busy enough. i charge you that if you do as you mentioned, you will leave the catholic church, as i have, and millions have before.

someone asked me for historical proof of the death count of the inquisition. i'm way to busy to do research for you, here's a sight of one of the crusades.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade[/url]

[ckozlowski]

why don't you guys play my role and come into my forum and debate with a bunch of people like me. i gotta warn ya, not everyone is as nice as me. they loath the church because of what it has done and what it is doing. if you want answers, better answers that i can give, and if you're up for a challenging debate..

go here: [url="http://p094.ezboard.com/Catholic-Reformation/bcatholicreformation"]http://p094.ezboard.com/Catholic-Reformati...olicreformation[/url]

those people have plenty of time to debate.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the crusades only show that the CC has sinned. it doesn't mean they taught it as faith and morals....

well, on second thought, they did indirectly teach that it was moral to kill noncatholis simply for being noncatholic. but it wasn't very direct, and id like to see the pople be next to teaching it even indirectly.

ckoz. you can tell people that they would leave if they studied. but, everyone here has studied. you admit you don' know mnay answrs to anything. so, if anyone is doubtful it's you. also, you're the one who's not arguing. even if it's only cause you don't have much time. you're still the one who's doubtful. you're just making accusations without reason.

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1391328' date='Sep 23 2007, 02:04 AM']the crusades only show that the CC has sinned. it doesn't mean they taught it as faith and morals....

well, on second thought, they did indirectly teach that it was moral to kill noncatholis simply for being noncatholic. but it wasn't very direct, and id like to see the pople be next to teaching it even indirectly.

ckoz. you can tell people that they would leave if they studied. but, everyone here has studied. you admit you don' know mnay answrs to anything. so, if anyone is doubtful it's you. also, you're the one who's not arguing. even if it's only cause you don't have much time. you're still the one who's doubtful. you're just making accusations without reason.[/quote]

naa, don't think so.

if any of you even considered reading the list of contradictions in the catechism, anyone looking for truth can see that it's a false religion. if your not looking for truth dairygirl, and you're willing to overlook the contradictions and lies and are wishfully thinking that the religion you were born into is the only right religion, then you simply will never be able to see the truth. and if you pick up the book of revelation, any who knows that its a bunch of lies can see that the papacy will usher the antichrist.

i was pointing out the inquisition because it supports the prophecy in the book of revelation.

Edited September 23, 2007 by ckozlowski