Trusting Holy Scriptures Over The Church

[thessalonian]

[quote]and you can't be a Christian and deny the fundamentals of Christianity.
the Gnostics weren't Christian.
the Arians weren't Christian.
the Pelagians,Nestorians,Monophysites,none of these groups were christian.[/quote]

With the exception of the gnostics and perhaps the Arians I disagree with this statement. The Church did not rebaptize heretics ( a doctrine that stands today) and baptism is the sacrament of initiation in to Christianity. Therefore those who were baptized in these heretical groups were considered Christians if they were not re-baptized. I don't believe the Arians were rebaptized. Though I can't say for sure. The gnostics likely weren't baptized.

I disagree Dairy, that the CCC says that those not formerly Catholic are not Christian. Is that what you meant or am i reading you wrong?

Edited September 20, 2007 by thessalonian

[Lord Philip]

ckozlowski,

You seem to throw around the term "the gospel" all the time as if you are reading the Bible (and thus speaking for it) and we are not. This is carying over a ridiculous anti-catholic diatribe that "Catholics don't even read their Bibles". You speak as if you are the one consulting Scripture and that my Catholic bretheren are not. Let me assure you, you are not the first to crack open the Scriptures and neither was Martin Luther. To continue to thrust a wedge between Scripture and the Church is not only "offensive" as you call it, but it is inaccurate and even worse, it is a circular argument.

Let me explain. We are all here trying to decide whether the Holy Catholic Church is in line with the Scriptures or whether it is not. Yet your arguments (evidenced by your claim to be weilding the gospel) are assuming the Protestant position right from the start. This is why we are going round and round in circles with you. This is a basic principle of argument: do not beg the question.

My Catholic Bretheren have made arguments from Scripture in response to your statement (let me remind you that by doing this they are arguing on Protestant grounds). Instead of continuing the ridiculous diatribes and continuing to run us around in circles, please address their points. Also, I would be interested in hearing a positive biblical case in favor of schism. Perhaps I will start a new thread with that.

If I were you (and I once was you....a Protestant who believed the Catholic Church was in error), I would give much heed to Revprodeji's statement about the Early Church Fathers. Does it not bother you that your interpretations of the Bible have no support in the understanding of Christianity, even in the very people who heard the words from the mouths of the Apostles themselves? Not only, in fact, is there no basis for your interpretations in the Early Fathers, but they flatly contradict your interpretations. Why is this so? Why does this not make you tremble? When I read these great Fathers as a Protestant, I indeed trembled...all the way accross the Tiber.

God bless you,

Philip

[Lord Philip]

Additionally, we as Catholics could use some of our own claims to authority, if you will.

Let us say you just made a brilliant case from the Scriptures concerning the non-rock status of St. Peter.

What we as Catholics could most certainly do is to tell you that your small interpretations of Scripture do not matter. Our Church holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, our pastors have their ordination in a direct line from that of Christ and that it was the Catholic Church that assembled the canon infallibly. Our Church is not rooted in rebellion but in the very work of God. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Protestants with their doctrines contradict Scripture in their schisms, in their tradition of "sola fide" when James 2.24 specifically contradicts this, and that they hold to the doctrine of "sola scriptura" which is not only illogical but nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Not only would you consider these truths uncharitable, but you would be quick to point out the fact that we are begging the question. I mention these things to you so you know that my Catholic Bretheren are holding their tongues beyond what is required of them. You would do well to avoid this fallacy yourself.

In Christ's love,

Philip

[ckozlowski]

[quote]Again, infallibility does not mean impecability.
Again you distort infallibility. You can make it so that he is perfect all the time but your going to have to find some other people to debate because we don't believe that. I can PROVE that Peter was infallible in a limited sense. You still have his two books in your bible don't you? How could he be infallible in a limited sense if he sinned. You should rip those two books out. They must have errors in them.[/quote]

My job is to just keep planting these seeds. . .

. . . it is the Holy Spirit's to make them grow.

[quote]I think the arguement is quite effective unless you have ripped those books out. If you have not then you have a limited infallibility doctrine as well.[/quote]

i'm starting to wonder if you have any common sense. not trying to be mean.
[quote]As I have proven above, if you have Peter's two books and I will add some of his words that are clearly scripture in your bible then you have a doctrine of limited infallibility of Peter. It's just not the same one we have. Jesus said "WHATEVER you bind on earth will be bound in heaven". Now WHATEVER Peter was to bind therefore must be correct by a charism of the Holy Spirit, for if it is bound in heaven.[/quote]

It was corrected by the holy spirit. Why do you think we rebuked the catholic church when it went bad?

God bless

[thessalonian]

[quote]i'm starting to wonder if you have any common sense. not trying to be mean.[/quote]

God bless you sir.

Edited September 20, 2007 by thessalonian

[N/A Gone]

Chris

Where did you go to school.

The only way you can plant a seed is if you have a point. Something to make us think. So far the only thing I can think is you were pre-programmed in a missions class. I guess weeds are a seed.

[quote]Why do you think we rebuked the catholic church when it went bad[/quote]

cite what went bad, and cite the point in which you left.

Then could you compare your own faith statement with that of luther or just admit that your own autonomy is the god you serve.

Why am I even writing. You dont respond to me.

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1389144' date='Sep 20 2007, 12:56 PM']Additionally, we as Catholics could use some of our own claims to authority, if you will.

Let us say you just made a brilliant case from the Scriptures concerning the non-rock status of St. Peter.

What we as Catholics could most certainly do is to tell you that your small interpretations of Scripture do not matter. Our Church holds the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, our pastors have their ordination in a direct line from that of Christ and that it was the Catholic Church that assembled the canon infallibly. Our Church is not rooted in rebellion but in the very work of God. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the Protestants with their doctrines contradict Scripture in their schisms, in their tradition of "sola fide" when James 2.24 specifically contradicts this, and that they hold to the doctrine of "sola scriptura" which is not only illogical but nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Not only would you consider these truths uncharitable, but you would be quick to point out the fact that we are begging the question. I mention these things to you so you know that my Catholic Bretheren are holding their tongues beyond what is required of them. You would do well to avoid this fallacy yourself.

In Christ's love,

Philip[/quote]

Phil, obviously you havn't been here for very long. If you look around a little but, you can see that i've been going through a crisis. many people here have helped me, from an indiscriminate objective point of view. i've come to the conclusion again that catholicism goes against the truth of the gospel. if one can't see that then i'm afraid that they need to "test all things" aka testing the scripture with many of the made up things that satan has infused into the church to lead people astray. allowing people to think that they can pray to dead people and pray to the earthly mother of Jesus Christ. Jesus was begotten, mary was a human being just like us.

you guys tell me to rip books out of my bible..what exactly is your standard to test things? the pope? we are instructed to test all things.. i really don't think we should test them with the pope, that's just me.

its not wise, considering bishops themselves have stated that they believe that the antichrist will be a pope.

Edited September 20, 2007 by ckozlowski

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='ckozlowski' post='1389167' date='Sep 20 2007, 02:35 PM']It was corrected by the holy spirit. Why do you think we rebuked the catholic church when it went bad?

God bless[/quote]

Where was your biblical authority to do that?


[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72987"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=72987[/url]

I guess in the gospel we see people leave Jesus when he teaches something that they cannot accept. Like the Eucharist in John 6:67

[quote]67 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

'ckozlowski'
[quote]i've come to the conclusion again that catholicism goes against the truth of the gospel.[/quote]

-Summerize the gospel message in a few sentences. Or better yet, you have a handful of sentences to explain to me the christian message. Tell me salvation. Use it without taking ideas from your pastor or from any christian in history.


[quote]if one can't see that then i'm afraid that they need to "test all things" aka testing the scripture with many of the made up things that satan has infused into the church to lead people astray.[/quote]

-you are weighing your soul against your personal limited ability to read and understand a document 2000 years old. We live in a world where our language is different and we know writing can mean/say more than was intended. How many relationships end because of a misunderstanding? You are betting your soul on it.


[quote]you guys tell me to rip books out of my bible..what exactly is your standard to test things? the pope? we are instructed to test all things.. i really don't think we should test them with the pope, that's just me.[/quote]

The church as a whole with the living tradition. As I said earlier in this thread. We are bound to the testimony of those who were taught by the lips of the apostles. Yet you never addressed my patristic objections. But you need to understand your criticism method of understanding the bible is not christian soteriology, it is a guru in a book club.

[quote]its not wise, considering bishops themselves have stated that they believe that the antichrist will be a pope.[/quote]

-we dont follow one guy. And even if we did follow the pope then the pope leds us to the testimony of the church. (I have read alot of B16, he is augustinian afterall) also, could you cite this for me please?

[thessalonian]

[quote]you guys tell me to rip books out of my bible[/quote]

And you said I lacked common sense. Did you read what I wrote? Clearly you didn't understand it. I implied that either Peter was infallible when he wrote those words or they must have errors in them and should not be in the Bible. I quite unmistakably do not believe that they should be ripped out of the Bible and to make such a claim is nonsense. I was exagerrating to make a point.

We don't pray to dead people. Those in heaven are not dead.

Mary was a person. Very true. She can do absolutely nothing for us except interceed for us with her son and we ask that she do that. It's sad you have to blow the doctrine out of proportion.

Where have we said all things are to be tested with the pope. Your making charges that don't hold water. Your speaking out of prejudice here and not reality. We don't tune in to radio free vatican for the latest update on Catholic doctrine.

Edited September 20, 2007 by thessalonian

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1389190' date='Sep 20 2007, 02:02 PM']And you said I lacked common sense. Did you read what I wrote? Clearly you didn't understand it. I implied that either Peter was infallible when he wrote those words or they must have errors in them and should not be in the Bible. I quite unmistakably do not believe that they should be ripped out of the Bible and to make such a claim is nonsense. I was exagerrating to make a point.

We don't pray to dead people. Those in heaven are not dead.

Mary was a person. Very true. She can do absolutely nothing for us except interceed for us with her son and we ask that she do that. It's sad you have to blow the doctrine out of proportion.[/quote]

i will continue to pray everyday for my family who are also like yourselves, so deeply deceived you simply can't recognize the truth when its in a book right in front of you.

arguing is futile. i've planted the seeds, weather you can see or not, it's not up to me. the holy spirit will decide. i'm just doing what is right.

take care guys

[N/A Gone]

please. Before you ride off into the sunset. Can you answer my questions?

At least the one where you tell me where you went to school. Lets just say I still have some serious connections in that arena.

[ckozlowski]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1389202' date='Sep 20 2007, 02:10 PM']please. Before you ride off into the sunset. Can you answer my questions?

At least the one where you tell me where you went to school. Lets just say I still have some serious connections in that arena.[/quote]

haha, rev sorry i've been negligent. there are so many people i can't possible answer everyone.

I went to college at saint peter's in jersey city for 2 years, i transferred to Gordon college in mass. it's a lot harder here but i'm learning so much.

[ckozlowski]

2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no [u]man[/u] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first"

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received [u]not the love of the truth[/u], that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them [u]strong delusion[/u], that they should believe a lie:" 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11

should i discard these verses too?

or should i just rip the whole book out..

[N/A Gone]

Chris,

Could you answer/work with my questions?

also, in your verses they cite an individual man. FOr me that would be the person with a strange different interpretation. You are an individual "man" not the tradition of the living Church. Our living tradition protects us against new movements/men deceiving. Thats why we dont have birth control.

You do not need to disregard scripture. Just see it with the historical lense of the cloud of believers whom Paul speaks of.

Please friend, read my posts and lets discuss those points. What classes do you have right now? I was a TA for the theology prof last semister(and 3 years before that) at my protestant bible college.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i fear c is beginning to turn into another budge. but, at least he does present somewhat of a crisis. he talks on the one hand of having a crisis, but on the other accuses everyone of following the pope. how is he to criticise if he doesn't even know? who is he to plant seeds if he doesn't even know?

if he does know he's not arguing it. he admits peter seems to be the rock. but hten makes claims that "obviously" the pope is not infallible. but doesn't say why. doesn't show the scripture. doesn't sow the history. just states it and that's all.

you've got a long way to go c


for example. he cites that peter took the wrong place not with the jews and paul reuked him. we point out that... peter wasn't teaching faith and morals. this isn't just revisionist history where the CC can try to fudge what peter done. it's an organic and natural phenomenon/concept to htink of someone being infallible only in the teaching, cause the teaching is the only thing that matters , if the pope sins, or peter takes the wrong spot, it doesn't show anything.
yet, c just ignores the response anddoesn't argue. i think he's blinding himself. he should at least admit it. i am aware he's busy and needs to study much but that's no excuse for not being honesty.

Edited September 20, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[N/A Gone]

Give the kid a lil slack. all of us have a long way to go. The important thing is the direction in which we are moving,

(fundamental option for the patristic fans)

[ckozlowski]

it's been a year since i left the church, yes, i do have a long way to go, i'm still young. i plan on being a professor.

[ckozlowski]

This was my first post, in "lies from fatima"

it's a little bit about myself and what i believe.

[quote]Hey guys, I just want to say that I am also amongst those who have witnessed the sun miracle. I know that all of these occurrences around the world are very real. I thank God everyday that he showed me the truth. But what God has revealed to me, none of you will accept. I only pray to God that he will open your eyes as you listen to what I have to say. I pray to God that you will "test all things" 1 Thess. 5:21

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I grew as an alter server, and eventually became a Eucharistic minister. I was strong in my Catholic faith. I also went to confession regularly. But during my junior year of high school, I took a biology course that changed my life forever. My teacher presented me with the theory of evolution. After learning all about it, I was hell bent on squaring the account of creation in the book of Genesis with the scientific facts in my text book. I consulted my mom, my priest and the scientific facts.

One night, I walked to the beach, knelt down on the sand, looked up into the sky and poured my heart out to God. I told him that I could not believe in him anymore unless he showed me that he was real. I told him that I needed to see that he was real. I asked for a sign. This was my ultimatum to God.

I woke up to go to school the next morning, went to class and came back home. I had a doctor’s appointment after school, so I drove. My mom was in the passenger seat. On the way to the doctor's office, the sun started to dance and flicker. I looked over at my mother to see her expression but she acted as if she hadn't even noticed. I was in awe and counted myself grateful that God gave me what I asked for. My mother could not see it, she thought I was crazy.

She mentioned what I had said to her to my doctor and he lectured me. As I was walking outside of the doctor's office, I looked over at the church next door. There was a woman dressed as a woman would dress in the Hellenistic era. She was pacing back and fourth as if she was praying. My mother couldn't see her. I believed it was the Virgin Mary. My mom believed I was crazy. She gave me drugs to sleep at night and to this day I still can't figure out why she did that.

I tripled my rosaries and masses. Tripled my efforts with everything that I thought God wanted of me.
I eventually went off to college to study theology. I was determined to learn everything I could about God's plan and his miracles. Now, here I am sitting in my apartment at college, during my junior year writing to all of you. Since my biblical studies program has intensified, I have done extensive research on all of the apparitions, and the book of revelation. I wanted to learn everything about the Catechism and the Bible. When I started to delve into the study of scripture and the Catechism I have to admit, I became very scared. And today I'm here to tell all of you that you should be too. Now what I am about to say you will not agree with, but please, all I ask of you is that you do as the apostle Paul tells us to do and "Test all things" I just pray to God that you listen to the warnings of the apostles themselves.

According to historical records Pope Innocent 13th had a strange experience - the sun danced in the Vatican gardens (as it was put). At the end of this remarkable week the Pope had a revelation, as he believed, and consequently proclaimed that Mary had been 'Assumed' into heaven. This is the belief that Mary was taken bodily into heaven, in the same way as Moses had been centuries before, as a special dispensation for bearing the Son of God.

Mary once told us: "Here you see hell, where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart... Pray, pray a great deal and make sacrifices for sinners. So many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them.”
But God also told us: “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.” Hbr 10:12
The bible says “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5-6) But we have Mary saying that she is also the mediator, how can this be?
If we look to our Bible in the book of Matthew it says, “false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.” Matthew 24:24 One must never underestimate the craftiness of the devil, he will appear “as an angel of light”
The term “elect” in theology means those who are chosen by God. So, if it is possible for those who are chosen by God to be deceived, then we have to look deeper. Why? Because this means that even the pope can be deceived.
Lets look to the book of Timothy, “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.” 2 Timothy 4:2-3 Here it is clearly stating that a time will come when people will no longer endure sound doctrine.

Listen to a verse from the book of Revelation, “I will show you the great judgment who sits on many waters. The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and toungs…Come out of her my people..lest you share in her sins…for she says in her heart “I sit as queen” Revelation 7:21, 15; 18:4 7
The Bible says that Satan can perform miracles too. The bible says that an angel of light will come to deceive many. The apostles tell us the only protection we have against deception is the word of God. “Test all things”

Okay, so what am I proposing? I’m saying that the whole message of the gospel is the message of salvation through faith, not the works of the law. But Mary is urging us to sacrifice for sinners, and the bible says that we can’t do that because Jesus paid the price, he was the sacrifice. Paul urges the Gentiles and Corinthians that we cannot rely on works. Jesus did away with them. That’s what he died for. If we don’t rely solely on Jesus’ sacrifice, but on our own works, we are not saved. Her message negates the whole purpose of the price Jesus paid for us. Thus taking away our salvation. That’s all the devil wants. That’s all he needs. He can also tell you “pray pray pray” and sacrifice for sinners”

If you read the Bible, you will find out that there is a passage where a person in a crowd around Jesus says “blessed is the womb that bore you” but Jesus says, but rather, blessed is he who hears the word of God and keeps it.”

In John’s epistles and the book of Revelation, he made it clear that many people would come along in the spirit of antichrist in the end of days. The spirit of the antichrist I believe, is the worship of Mary. We have cultic masses who worship her. God says “you shall have no other gods before me” But there will come a day when one world leader will rise to power who will be the embodiment of evil, one who is empowered and directed by the devil himself. This will be the Antichrist. Until then Satan will pull his strings, deceiving and confusing as many as possible. He didn’t convince me, I’ll trust in Jesus. God has revealed this to me so that I could reveal it to you. God knew I would proclaim to the world the truth of salvation that comes through trust in the sacrifice of himself.

If you are not convinced, please look into this or at least bear it in mind as this demon posed as the blessed Mary deceives the nations. Study the scriptures, I promise those of you who are God’s, you will break free from the bonds of idolatry. I end this rendition that kept me up all night to write with a quote, “my people are destroyed because they do not know me” Hosea 4:6[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

I am gonna take the time to read this. So in exchange you respond to my posts k?