Trusting Holy Scriptures Over The Church

[dairygirl4u2c]

ck really got it handed to him since his last post...

[dairygirl4u2c]

maybe not...

evna is the aramaic word for stone..
couldn't jesus have said you are evna and on this kepha i will build my church?



* Peter (Petros) is defined as a stone.
* “rock” (Petra) is defined as a rock

Edited September 18, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Mateo el Feo]

I actually posted my reply the "Fatima" thread...

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=71559&st=260&gopid=1387651&#entry1387651"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1387651[/url]

Kinda hard to straddle two threads, but...

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1387637' date='Sep 17 2007, 11:19 PM']maybe not...

evna is the aramaic word for stone..
couldn't jesus have said you are evna and on this kepha i will build my church?
* Peter (Petros) is defined as a stone.
* “rock” (Petra) is defined as a rock[/quote]


"Petros" is greek as "small stone".
"Lithos" is greek for "little pebble"

"Evna" is aramiac for "little pebble"

If Christ had said "Evna", instead of "Kepha", they would have translated it as such. Instead, they translated it as "Petros" and "Petra", simply reflecting the masculinity as a male's name.

I believe "Lithos" is masculine as well ( not positive ) so why would they make such a change if there was no need to ( They could have translated "Evna" straight to "Lithos" if that was what Christ actually said ).

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1387554' date='Sep 17 2007, 08:32 PM'](Copied from Fatima thread)

Okay, let's look at the immmediate contect of Matthew 16:
[b]"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." [/b](Matt. 16:18)
Jesus Christ directly addresses Simon, and gives him a new name, Peter, which translates directly as "Rock."
Obviously, the rock on which Christ built His Church is Peter, as He is addressing Peter, and gave him the new name "Rock."
When God gives someone a new name in the Bible, it always indicates Him giving that person an important new mission (Abram to Abraham, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter).
After calling Simon-Peter "Rock," why would Christ suddenly change the topic mid-sentence to refer to something entirely different? That just would not make any sense, in any language.[/quote]

It would make perfect sense if Christ had ADD:

Hey Simon, old buddy, old pal! 'Sup? Look, I was talking with my dad, and well, your new name is "Rocky"! How's that sound to ya?

Hey look! A squirrel!

Oh, and speaking of rocks, I'm founding a new Church, and I'll be the cornerstone.

And what else did Dad say to tell you?

Hey there's that squirrel again!

Oh, yeah, you're getting the Keys to Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth, that shall be bound in heaven, same thing for the things you loose on earth. That's pretty cool, huh? But don't let it get to your head--I'm not establishing Apostolic Tradition or the Papacy or anything like that...

[SarahB]

Wow......my keyboard totally did not need that shower of Pepsi.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's a lot to assume the translations are so perfect, or the transloars were so perfect so as to say.... lithos instead of petros. as lithos and petros are very similar.

but if your translations are exact and accurate, you got a better argument.

Edited September 18, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1387744' date='Sep 18 2007, 09:30 AM']it's a lot to assume the translations are so perfect, or the transloars were so perfect so as to say.... lithos instead of petros. as lithos and petros are very similar.[/quote]

Which is why, as I said, we are glad we do not need to look back on a 2000 piece of paper and try to understand it and pull whatever theory out we want. The patristic commentary about this passage and the concept of Peter as the rock of the church is universal and abundant.

Here is 50 before the year 700. (I had them individually quoted, but there is a quote limit)

[quote]“Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...'” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid...” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others...” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail'” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church...” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom...” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372).

"Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures." Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373).

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374).

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375).

“Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church.” Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 32:18 (A.D. 380).

“[W]e have considered that it ought be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it..."...The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither the stain nor blemish nor anything like it.” Pope Damasus, Decree of Damasus, 3 (A.D. 382).

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384).

"Peter bore the person of the church.” Augustine, Sermon 149:7 (inter A.D. 391-430).

“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.” Augustine, Psalmus contro Partem Donati (A.D. 393).

“But you say, the Church was rounded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one (Peter) among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.” Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 1 (A.D. 393).

“The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles...he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church.” Gregory of Nyssa, Panegyric on St. Stephen, 3 (ante A.D. 394).

“Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church,” Wherefore where Peter is the Church is...” Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 40:30 (AD 395).

“At length, after being tempted by the devil, Peter is set over the Church.” Ambrose, Commentary on the Psalms, 43:40 (AD 397).

“In order that he may show his power, God has endowed none of his disciples with gifts like Peter. But, having raised him with heavenly gifts, he has set him above all. And, as first disciple and greater among the brethren, he has shown, by the test of deeds, the power of the Spirit. The first to be called, he followed at once...The Saviour confided to this man, as some special trust, the whole universal Church, after having asked him three times 'Lovest thou me?' And he receive the world in charge...” Asterius, Homily 8 (A.D. 400).

"(Peter) The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples." John Chrysostom, Ad eos qui scandalizati 17(ante A.D. 407).

“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey.” John Chrysostom, De Eleemosyna, 3:4 (ante A.D. 407).

“This Peter on whom Christ freely bestowed a sharing in his name. For just as Christ is the rock, as the Apostle Paul taught, so through Christ Peter is made rock, when the Lord says to him: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church...” Maximus of Turin, Homily 63 (A.D. 408).

“...the most firm rock, who (Peter) from the principal Rock received a share of his virtue and his name.” Prosper of Aquitaine, The Call of All Nations, 2:28(A.D. 426).

“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.” Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428).

“[B]ut that great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the authority in faith and priesthood. Tell us therefore, tell us we beg of you, Peter, prince of the Apostles, tell us how the churches must believe in God.” John Cassian, Contra Nestorium, 3:12 (A.D. 430).

“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place...” Philip, Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

“[B]lessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he under took...And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See...to him whom they know to be not only the patron of this See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore...believe that he is speaking whose representative we are:..” Pope Leo the Great, Sermon 3:3-4 (A.D. 442).

“We exhort you, honourable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome.” Peter Chrysologus, Epistle 25 of Leo from Peter (A.D. 449).

“If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Ghost, hastened to the great Peter in order that he might carry from him the desired solution of difficulties to those at Antioch who were in doubt about living in conformity with the law, much more do we, men insignificant and small, hasten to your apostolic see in order to receive from you a cure for the wounds of the churches. For every reason it is fitting for you to hold the first place, inasmuch as your see is adorned with many privileges.” Theodoret of Cyrus, To Pope Leo, Epistle 113 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he Lord wished to be indeed the concern of all the Apostles: and from him as from the Head wishes His gifts to flow to all the body: so that any one who dares to secede from Peter's solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery.” Pope Leo the Great, To Bishops of Vienne, Epistle 10 (A.D. 450).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith...” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. 'Peter, the apostle, who is the rock and support of the Catholic Church.'” Paschasinus, Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

“Peter is again called 'the coryphaeus of the Apostles.’” Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25 (ante A.D. 468).

“The holy Roman Church is senior to the other churches not by virtue of any synodal decrees, but obtained the primacy from Our Lord and Savior in the words of the Gospel, 'Thou art Peter...'” Pope Gelasius, Decree of Gelasium (A.D. 492).

“[T]he statement of Our Lord Jesus Christ who said, 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,'...These (words) which were spoken, are proved by the effects of the deeds, because in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved without stain.'” Pope Hormisdas, Libellus professionis fidei, (A.D. 519).

“To Peter, that is, to his church, he gave the power of retaining and forgiving sins on earth.” Fulgentius, De Remissione Peccatorum, 2:20 (A.D. 523).

“Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the 'rock', when the voice of the Truth says, 'I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven'. To him again is said "When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.” Pope Gregory the Great, Epistle 40 (A.D. 604).

“The decrees of the Roman Pontiff, standing upon the supremacy of the Apostolic See, are unquestionable.” Isidore of Seville, (ante A.D. 636).

“For the extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord, look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of our fathers, according to what the six inspired and holy Councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the Incarnate Word among us, all the churches in every part of the world have possessed that greatest church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that, according to the promise of Christ Our Savior, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it possesses the Keys of right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High.” Maximus the Confessor, Opuscula theologica et polemica (A.D. 650).

“Peter was pronounced blessed by the Lord...the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church under whose protecting shield, this Apostolic Church of his has never turned away from the path of truth in any direction of error, whose authority, as that of the Prince of all the Apostles, the whole Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced...” Pope Agatho, To Ecumenical Council VI at Constantinople, (A.D. 680).

"A copy of the letter sent by the holy and Ecumenical Sixth Council to Agatho, the most blessed and most holy pope of Old Rome…Therefore to thee, as to the bishop of the first see of the Universal Church, we leave what must be done, since you willingly take for your standing ground the firm rock of the faith, as we know from having read your true confession in the letter sent by your fatherly beatitude to the most pious emperor: and we acknowledge that this letter was divinely written (perscriptas) as by the Chief of the Apostles, and through it we have cast out the heretical sect of many errors which had recently sprung up..” Constantinople III, Council to Pope Agatho, (A.D. 680).

“For, although the devil desired to sift all the disciples, the Lord testifies that He Himself asked for Peter alone, and wished that the others be confirmed my him; and to Peter also was committed the care of 'feeding the sheep'(John 21:15);and to him also did the Lord hand over the 'keys of the kingdom of heaven'(Matthew 16:19),and upon him did He promise to 'build His Church' (Matthew 16:18);and He testified that 'the gates of Hell would not prevail against it' (Matthew 16:19).” Pope Pelagius II, Quod Ad Dilectionem (c. A.D. 685).

“'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven'? When Wilfrid spoken thus, the king said, 'It is true, Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by our Lord?' He answered, 'It is true O king!' Then says he, 'Can you show any such power given to your Columba?' Colman answered, 'None.' Then added the king, "Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by our Lord?' They both answered, 'We do.'” Venerable Bede, (A.D. 700), Ecclesiastical History, 3:5 (A.D. 700).[/quote]






East and west. Regardless of what new theory you can develop from your own bias and modern literary criticism you need to reconcile the over-abundant and universal testimony of the early church. Which does not ever mention your theory, but declares that peter is the rock. (Yes, there is more than this)

[dairygirl4u2c]

good call rev. what they thought is indicative. i think it's clear that peter was the rock.

i'm not convinced obviously yet, as to what that indicates. (i don't think you are either right, cause you're like coptic aren't you? a variation of catholic but you cal yourself that? id be more inclined to believe a variation of the papacy where the pope is not infallible)

[N/A Gone]

Im not what? You lost me./

We could discuss the implications of that rock, in the eccesiological sense if you want.

Are you calling me Coptic? I am confused. Could you shed a lil more light on that Dairygirl.

I have a feeling we could have a good talk about infallability also, but in its own time and place.

[dairygirl4u2c]

isn't your real name jon m? i might have you confused with someone else.

[N/A Gone]

Yea it is. I am sure you are thinking of me,

Now you are scaring me. How did you know my real name and why did you think I was coptic?

Wish I could PM you right now.

[N/A Gone]

*bump*

you gotta explain the coptic thing and how you knew my name.

[ckozlowski]

As the centuries move on we're learning more and more about the Bible. We're uncovering meanings that couldn't be uncovered without documents such as the dead sea scrolls, etc.. We know more about the bible today than we ever have in all of history.

Mateo just laid it all out in the other thread so if you don't understand this completely, the basis of the argument is available due to Mateo's scholarly rendition.

I gotta be honest this has racked my brain the past few days. I left the church, and say..it is the true church, then i'm clearly failing Christ and I must repent.

I've completely backed up and looked at this without bias because this verse is absolutely crucial.

What it comes down to is the meaning of this verse.. which Mateo clarified and explained to me. And i'm still arguing with myself what exactly it was that jesus was saying. I'm down to (2) plausible choices.

If when Jesus said "this rock" He was referring to Peter, then I should repent for leaving the one and only Church sanctioned by God himself.

If when Jesus said "this rock" He was referring to Peter's declaration that Jesus is the Christ, "the son of the living God" then the Catholic church has gone astray and it would only be logical for this verse below to refer to the church.

"Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;" Rev. 18:4

I'm not deciding yet! i'm still digging for answers. I'm only arguing to get to the bottom of this, really. This is too significant for me to look over without indiscriminate and extensive examination. it would help if you did this as well, and if you could all take on the character of mateo for this question because it will be factored into the decision that will determine the rest of my life.

The past year of my life has been a roller coaster. What i'm having difficulty with is seeing Jesus referring to peter as "this rock" and not peter's declaration itself, .. i don't know

I have a lot to do tonight so this is def my last input for the day, but if you guys want to share insight that i can read later that'd be sweet. thanks guys

God bless

Edited September 18, 2007 by ckozlowski

[N/A Gone]

Sometimes this happens, but do you have me blocked?