A Message To Our Non-catholic Friends

[Justin86]

[quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1401864' date='Oct 14 2007, 07:48 AM']My kids are adopted and their all illegitimate.[/quote]
While I understand in what way they are "illegitimate", to me it sounds more like you putting blame on the child for something he has no control over whereas if you say "out of wetlock" it sounds more like you're empahzing that the parents are at fault for not being married.

Does that make some sense?

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1401867' date='Oct 14 2007, 07:50 AM']Justin, if its any consolation, I thought your joke about 'gay marriage' was quite funny.[/quote]
Actually, it is.

[hyperdulia again]

Well no my babies..they're sacred and sinless...and holy...and illegitimate.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1401876' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:01 AM'] Actually, it is. [/quote]

[dUSt]

By the way, use of the word heretic is not against the phorum guidelines. It's a real word with a real meaning.

If it is used in a derogatory manner, that's what is not allowed.

Some may debate this, but by most definitions, Protestants are heretics. Period.

Also, I think that using the word to simply stir up a reaction, purposely offend someone, or simply because you get a kick out of it, is silly, uncharitable--and frankly, juvenile.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1401891' date='Oct 13 2007, 04:16 PM']By the way, use of the word heretic is not against the phorum guidelines. It's a real word with a real meaning.

If it is used in a derogatory manner, that's what is not allowed.

Some may debate this, but by most definitions, Protestants are heretics. Period.

Also, I think that using the word to simply stir up a reaction, purposely offend someone, or simply because you get a kick out of it, is silly, uncharitable--and frankly, juvenile.[/quote]
Let's just make fun of our views of each other and laugh as friends who all believe in Jesus, shall we?

[mortify]

It's a difficult balance, on one hand you want to be friendly and inviting, on the other hand you want to stand for truth because its not something arbitrary.

[hoosieranna]

Just from my experience, I learn more when I listen. I listen when I'm not being backed into a corner. I've stated in the past that I don't argue theology, and that I have enormous respect for the Church. I'm here to learn. Kudos to those that teach.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1402043' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:51 PM']Just from my experience, I learn more when I listen. I listen when I'm not being backed into a corner. I've stated in the past that I don't argue theology, and that I have enormous respect for the Church. I'm here to learn. Kudos to those that teach.[/quote]

you aren't here to rue?

[hoosieranna]

Not tonight, no.

Now, back on topic.

[jeffpugh]

Ha! Anywho back on topic. Welcome, separated Brethren

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1401891' date='Oct 13 2007, 05:16 PM']By the way, use of the word heretic is not against the phorum guidelines. It's a real word with a real meaning.

If it is used in a derogatory manner, that's what is not allowed.

Some may debate this, but by most definitions, Protestants are heretics. Period.

Also, I think that using the word to simply stir up a reaction, purposely offend someone, or simply because you get a kick out of it, is silly, uncharitable--and frankly, juvenile.[/quote]


agreed and I don't really see anything else that needs said about this.

[hyperdulia again]

I want state again that there was nothing uncharitable about my use of the term on my now closed thread.

[BG45]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1402043' date='Oct 13 2007, 11:51 PM']Just from my experience, I learn more when I listen. I listen when I'm not being backed into a corner. I've stated in the past that I don't argue theology, and that I have enormous respect for the Church. I'm here to learn. Kudos to those that teach.[/quote]

So...sorry everyone, for resurrecting a two day old thread, but wanted to comment. I've really got to agree with this post.

Why? Because I've been backed into a corner many a time, and it has never made me want to accept something. I was ostracized to an extent in the church I grew up in, because I didn't go forward "to be saved" by age six or seven. Did I believe in Christ? Not that young, but once I did believe that God sent His Son to die for my sins, as well as those of all humanity, I was in a state where I felt I couldn't go forward.

It took something major to make me go forward for baptism, and the entire way I was treated, subsequently changed, at least for a bit. "Religions to Beware Of" class didn't make me popular when I played Devil's Advocate (no pun intended) for Satanism, Wicca, Jehovah's Witnesses, and gasp...Catholicism.

I know a number of Catholics who pray for me to come into the Church. However they do not press me too hard. They do answer my questions, recommend books if they can't. One former Catholic pointed me here even. I doubt I'd stick around if I felt I was being backed into a corner, nor would I stand to be told I was going to Hell if I didn't think a person actually believed it. (Although, I once went to a different service at my own church and got a tract on how I was...I don't go there anymore, but that's not the reason.)

It is one thing to research something. It is one thing to know that something in an academic sense. It is another thing, to allow that something, to blossom in one's heart as certain truth. Anyhow, just my two cents.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='BG45' post='1403226' date='Oct 15 2007, 07:25 PM'][i]So...sorry everyone, for resurrecting a two day old thread, but wanted to comment. I've really got to agree with this post.

Why? Because I've been backed into a corner many a time, and it has never made me want to accept something. I was ostracized to an extent in the church I grew up in, because I didn't go forward "to be saved" by age six or seven. Did I believe in Christ? Not that young, but once I did believe that God sent His Son to die for my sins, as well as those of all humanity, I was in a state where I felt I couldn't go forward.

It took something major to make me go forward for baptism, and the entire way I was treated, subsequently changed, at least for a bit. "Religions to Beware Of" class didn't make me popular when I played Devil's Advocate (no pun intended) for Satanism, Wicca, Jehovah's Witnesses, and gasp...Catholicism.

I know a number of Catholics who pray for me to come into the Church. However they do not press me too hard. They do answer my questions, recommend books if they can't. One former Catholic pointed me here even. I doubt I'd stick around if I felt I was being backed into a corner, nor would I stand to be told I was going to Hell if I didn't think a person actually believed it. (Although, I once went to a different service at my own church and got a tract on how I was...I don't go there anymore, but that's not the reason.)

It is one thing to research something. It is one thing to know that something in an academic sense. It is another thing, to allow that something, to blossom in one's heart as certain truth. Anyhow, just my two cents.[/quote][/i]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I am so glad you are here, and again, I apoligize for some of the comments that are less charitable. You are right in the sense that we can't read hearts. I think it is extremely prideful to try to figure out where certain people, and esp. certain groups, collectively are going after death. The Church gives us certain normatives and insights, but we are not God. We don't know how he will judge. We do know that he is all merciful, all loving, and all just. And that is enough for me.

Edited October 16, 2007 by friendofJPII

[BG45]

Thanks friendofJPII. I've not really found any of the comments too offensive personally, but hey, being more or less an outcast from people you grow up in church with for eighteen years, does wonders for a thick skin.

And yes, God is merciful and just...if He were not, I imagine the human race would have disappeared long ago.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1401826' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:24 PM']Vatican II was not dogmatic. The CCC isn't dogmatic. Addresses/speeches aren't dogmatic. I posted dogma, not just quotes.[/quote]
The VII quotes in the "This Rock" article are from [i]Lumen Gentium[/i] and [i]Gaudium et Spes[/i]. Not everything said at Vatican II was dogmatic... in fact, I believe that many things said at Vatican II were pastoral, but the 7 major documents (including LG & GS) are infallible. However, notice that those two quotes stress that Non-Catholics *may* be saved. There is a "possibility" that our Separated Brethren can achieve salvation. We can't presume against God's mercy. That goes for lackadaisical Catholics that commit mortal sin and think, "I'll just go to Confession before Mass tomorrow." And that also goes for the heretics and schismatics, who may have always longed for the true Faith, they just were going about it all wrong.

I work in a funeral home, and I'm making an effort to pray for every deceased person that comes through our doors. We own 4 other funeral homes and have about 5-15 funerals going on at once. It's really easy to just see them as names on a death certificate, or accounts on a sales report but the truth is that they're souls, and who knows whether they were right with God at the moment of death? If the Church didn't teach that there's at least a *possibility* for Non-Catholics to go to heaven, then I have no reason to pray for these people.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1401853' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:42 PM']I'm all for telling them that the CC is the one true Church and its necessity for salvation, but I believe that can be done without needless labeling.[/quote]

I think it's easy to misconstrue what people on message boards say and put people into little groups and stereotype them. I'm not necessarily singling you out here, since a lot of people on phatmass do this, including myself. But people are more likely to say things online that they'd never, ever say in real life. It's very easy to say uncharitable things to people because this is an anonymous online environment and not a real community. We're all just a bunch of words on a screen.

In another thread, we were talking about modesty and someone was mentioning the ridiculous old-fashioned outfits some women wear to be modest. I posted a this picture:

[img]http://www.liliesapparel.com/family12004.jpeg[/img]

It was really just a joke to suggest that you can be modest without dressing like you live in a little house on the prairie. Someone else said, "Hey, I know that picture is probably of your family, but ...[insert counter-argument here]" I wasn't offended or hurt by the comment, but I did find it funny because my family is nothing like that. My parents are divorced, I was raised by my mom & grandma. Mom is secular, Grandma's a member of Voice of the Faithful. Dad lives 3000 miles away and is a Cafeteria Catholic. I went to secular schools all my life and when I look at my upbringing it makes my conversion look like some kind of freak accident, because I was raised in a spiritual vacuum, not a Catholic bubble.

But it's easy to read my posts and think that I grew up in a traditional Catholic family. I'm not angry at anyone on the board, but this story illustrates that it's imprudent to assume you know someone just by looking at their online profile and phatmass posting habits. I can look at certain posters and think of them as "that Republican guy," "that schismatic kid," "the liberal girl," "the theology grad student who knows everything." That's a mistake. We can't assume that we actually know each other. Unless, of course, you do know each other in real life. Then by all means, make assumptions

Some people see people on message boards throwing down the H-bomb and think, "Gosh, what uncharitable freaks these people are! They must go around reminding people that they are all schismatics, apostates and heretics!" But the way people act on message boards is [thank God!] often not the way they would act out in the world. For example, I don't know if I've ever said to someone, "You're a heretic" or "You're a schismatic." But out of love for my fellow man, I will tell someone if what they believe is a heresy defined by the Church. It's like... being a doctor and looking at someone's MRI and not telling the patient they have a brain tumour out of fear that you'll hurt their feelings. Eventually, the tumour grows and by the time they find out about it, it's too late.

That's how I feel about heresy. In the beginning of my conversion, I had a hard time calling God "Father" because it reminded me of my deadbeat dad. I told my friend (who is now a Dominican Sister in Nashville) about it. She didn't just say, "Well, all right, I guess we believe different things but you're my seperated sister in Christ." Instead, she said "That's heresy. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our Father, we are His Children. Jesus is our Bridegroom, the Church is the Bride. That's the way it is. You can't deny that." It [i]really [/i]hurt me to think that I had to call God "Father" in order to be truly Catholic. But my friend used that situation as an opportunity to show me how much God desires to heal all of the wounds in my life. Unlike my earthly Father, God isn't a deadbeat. He doesn't ignore you during your formative years...or introduce you to his new girlfriend, who's only 3 years older than you are. He's the perfect father I never had. Yeah, it might have hurt when my friend told me my beliefs were heretical, but now I thank God that she had the courage to drop the H-bomb around me.

Yes, heretics and schismatics are our seperated brethren in Christ. And I wouldn't go around calling people heretics left and right. But it is kind and loving to say "That's heresy, if you keep believing in it your soul will be in jeopardy" just like you'd say "That's a brain tumour. If you don't let me cut it out, you might not survive."

[friendofJPII]

If you don't have enough guts to call some one a heretic or pagan in real life, then why do it on the board? After all there are still real people reading what we write and can be taken aback if they don't fully understand the Church's definition, esp. since those words carry a negative connotation in secular vocabulary. I also think there is a difference between saying, "that's a heresy..." and "you are a heretic..." The first quote simply acknowledges that what the person is saying is untrue. The second labels a person, perhaps unjustly, for we do not know if they are a formal or material heretic. Most likely, in the case of Protestants, there is no evil intent. Like I said, if we are going to use the H word, let's start with the dissenting clergy in our Church. They are doing the most damage.

And of course the catechism is authoritative. If it were not, ordinary people would have to be Church scholars with degrees in theology and conduct hours of research in order to discern basic Church teaching. Jesus wants the faith to be assessible to the learned and unlearned, therefore, he would never will for things to be that complicated. He's a very staightforward guy.

Edited October 16, 2007 by friendofJPII

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1403495' date='Oct 16 2007, 08:53 AM']And of course the catechism is authoritative. If it were not, ordinary people would have to be Church scholars with degrees in theology and conduct hours of research in order to discern basic Church teaching. Jesus wants the faith to be assessible to the learned and unlearned, therefore, he would never will for things to be that complicated. He's a very staightforward guy.[/quote]
Of course the current Catechism of the Catholic Church has been put forth by an authoritative source. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger played a huge editorial role in its development. This isn't the first Catechism ever issued--other catechisms like the one from the Council of Trent were proclaimed infallible by popes. It's possible that one day, the Holy Father might make a proclamation that the CCC is infallible but until he does, we should use it as a guide, but not look at it as infallible.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1403512' date='Oct 16 2007, 08:28 AM']Of course the current Catechism of the Catholic Church has been put forth by an authoritative source. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger played a huge editorial role in its development. This isn't the first Catechism ever issued--other catechisms like the one from the Council of Trent were proclaimed infallible by popes. It's possible that one day, the Holy Father might make a proclamation that the CCC is infallible but until he does, we should use it as a guide, but not look at it as infallible.[/quote]

is there anything in the current CC that you take issue with? If the Church has approved and published the catechism then it is authoritative. It is the main teaching resource of the Church. The Church cannot teach error.

And going back to the last point, if you are not willing to call your Grandma whom you do know personally a heretic to her face, I do not think it is appropriate to call the Protestants on this board who you don't know heretics. "What is good for the goose is good for the gander...."

Edited October 16, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1401874' date='Oct 13 2007, 06:59 PM']This reminds me of the cartoon I want to start, "Harry Tick the Heretic". It's an extreme fundamentalist tick who is really harry and always get's himself into debates that always end with him saying, "Your mom."[/quote]


Lordy lord my roomate must have read that. She's a fundy and she ends every argument with "your mom" or "your face" how immature