Holy Hillary...

[Jaime]

and as far as just war

[quote]The "concept of a 'preventive war' does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church," Cardinal Ratzinger noted.

2003

Q: Eminence, a topical question that in a certain sense is inherent to the Catechism: Does the Anglo-American war against Iraq fit the canons of a "just war"?

Cardinal Ratzinger: The Pope expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith.

The Holy Father's judgment is also convincing from the rational point of view: There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war."[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

John Paul II never stated the war was "unjust" nor has Benedict. They have been critical of negative actions, namely the start of the war, but saying anything beyond that is really putting words in their mouth. Again as of yet the Church has not commend the war as unjust, nor has any Pope.

But enough hijacking the thread this is about Hillary Clinton's using faith to score votes, when she is far from God.

Edited November 11, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[ironmonk]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1417254' date='Nov 10 2007, 11:35 PM']Actually, I did read it. That portion doesn't support the hateful view you spew.

Speaking of reading it, how do you reconcile the part that says you shouldnt vote based on party lines?

(Side note - I find it laughable how you used to "respect" me when I was Catholic, but now that I list none as my religion, I'm considered ignorant and moronic.)[/quote]

"hateful view"... "not to create dependancy on welfare" is hateful? by what definition? What is sad is that you don't know what hate is or how to help someone. The way you help the poor is to train them, help them get to a point where they can support themselves. The more people that suffer from poverty who are trained and educated to a point where they can support themselves then they open up money for others who are in poverty. To say what you wrote about my view of poverty reeks of ignorance for you drew your own conclusions without any evidence. There have been at least half a dozen times on this board where I have posted my thoughts that totally contradict your conclusion of error. A note to you, you're 17 and seem to be angery at the world, it's called testosterone, maybe when you grow into maturity you'll understand better, but right now you are going off half cocked with an empty gun. If you're not Catholic, why are you here posting? Simply to feed your anger, to learn, to divide, or to bring people down with you?


Side note: you have no logical basis for your statements. you are far off base on what is being posted. you made an moronic statement, that is not the same as calling you moronic. ignorant is a lack of information, if someone lacks information on a subject then they are therefore ignorant of that subject. whatever basis of logic you are trying to use is unsound.

Other note: To assume that a disagreement on a debate board means someone does not respect another is having a very myopic view of reality. Many topics are unrelated to others, if someone tries to debate with ignorant or moronic statements, I'm going to call them on it. I don't base my opinions on whims, I base them on the Catholic faith teachings. I am very careful not to misrepresent the teachings of the faith. If I say something is a Catholic teaching, it's because of Catholic documents (Scripture, Catechism, ECF writings, Encyclicals, Vatican/Bishops statements). Not my own whims. See, the Catholic Church is right on all counts of faith and morals... I don't want to be wrong, so if I learn that I have an opinion contradictory to Catholic teachings, I change it to be in line with the faith. When I say or write "the Catholic teaching is this...", it's because it is, if someone thinks I'm wrong, [u][b]I welcome correction: with Catholic documents[/b][/u]. I do not respect attacks without reason.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1417394' date='Nov 11 2007, 02:29 AM']and as far as just war[/quote]

More red herrings a la Jamie.

The war was not preventative. Saddam had WMD's. Bush had the responsiblity for the common good (as the Catholic Church teaches that civil leaders are responsible for the common good). Bush is going to have more info on what is going on with evil world leaders than a Pope or Bishops in most cases, and this was one of them.

And I'd say go back and reread it. The war on terror is supported. End of story. If you want to continue to be bitter because you are wrong and continue to post red herrings, you just prove your too blinded by your own opinions. "War as last resort" means that sometimes WAR IS ACCEPTABLE. It does not get any clearer than that... war is not evil... war is sometimes needed. The war is over and the Iraqi people are free, more free than they have ever been. Less people are dying. The Kurds do not have to fear being killed by Saddam because they're Kurds.



[quote]All nations have a right and duty to defend human life and the common good against terrorism, aggression, and similar threats. In the aftermath of September 11, we called for continuing outreach to those who had been harmed, clear resolve in responding to terror, moral restraint in the means used, respect for ethical limits on the use of force, greater focus on the roots of terror, and a serious effort to share fairly the burdens of this response. While military force as a last resort can sometimes be justified to defend against aggression and similar threats to the common good, we have raised serious moral concerns and questions about preemptive or preventive use of force.[/quote]

Edited November 11, 2007 by ironmonk

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1417713' date='Nov 11 2007, 02:03 PM']"hateful view"... "not to create dependancy on welfare" is hateful? by what definition? What is sad is that you don't know what hate is or how to help someone. The way you help the poor is to train them, help them get to a point where they can support themselves. The more people that suffer from poverty who are trained and educated to a point where they can support themselves then they open up money for others who are in poverty. To say what you wrote about my view of poverty reeks of ignorance for you drew your own conclusions without any evidence. There have been at least half a dozen times on this board where I have posted my thoughts that totally contradict your conclusion of error. A note to you, you're 17 and seem to be angery at the world, it's called testosterone, maybe when you grow into maturity you'll understand better, but right now you are going off half cocked with an empty gun. If you're not Catholic, why are you here posting? Simply to feed your anger, to learn, to divide, or to bring people down with you?
Side note: you have no logical basis for your statements. you are far off base on what is being posted. you made an moronic statement, that is not the same as calling you moronic. ignorant is a lack of information, if someone lacks information on a subject then they are therefore ignorant of that subject. whatever basis of logic you are trying to use is unsound.

Other note: To assume that a disagreement on a debate board means someone does not respect another is having a very myopic view of reality. Many topics are unrelated to others, if someone tries to debate with ignorant or moronic statements, I'm going to call them on it. I don't base my opinions on whims, I base them on the Catholic faith teachings. I am very careful not to misrepresent the teachings of the faith. If I say something is a Catholic teaching, it's because of Catholic documents (Scripture, Catechism, ECF writings, Encyclicals, Vatican/Bishops statements). Not my own whims. See, the Catholic Church is right on all counts of faith and morals... I don't want to be wrong, so if I learn that I have an opinion contradictory to Catholic teachings, I change it to be in line with the faith. When I say or write "the Catholic teaching is this...", it's because it is, if someone thinks I'm wrong, [u][b]I welcome correction: with Catholic documents[/b][/u]. I do not respect attacks without reason.
God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]
If I don't know you, you don't know me. I find it insulting that you write off half of what I say as due to my age.

I had other things to say, but I've decided it's not worth the energy.

Have a lovely day

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1417721' date='Nov 11 2007, 02:10 PM']Saddam had WMD's.[/quote]
A few questions, just out of curiosity.

What was he doing with them at the time that made it imperative for the common good that he no longer had them?
Where are those WMDs now?

Simply wondering, I don't have a deep background with this topic so I would appreciate if you would englighten me.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1417924' date='Nov 11 2007, 08:38 PM']If I don't know you, you don't know me. I find it insulting that you write off half of what I say as due to my age.

I had other things to say, but I've decided it's not worth the energy.

Have a lovely day [/quote]

It's not really your age, it's the fact that you disagree with him. If you were older he would find some other random excuse to write off your arguments. Try not to take it personally. (I know - easier said than done.)

I'd like to read the things that you have to say.

[Socrates]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1417713' date='Nov 11 2007, 04:03 PM']"hateful view"... "not to create dependancy on welfare" is hateful?[/quote]
Didn't you know, anything which disagrees with a liberal, or which is contrary to political correctness, is ipso facto "hateful." Get with the program, Monk!

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1417995' date='Nov 11 2007, 09:42 PM']Didn't you know, anything which disagrees with a liberal, or which is contrary to political correctness, is ipso facto "hateful." Get with the program, Monk![/quote]
You're silly, I'm not a liberal

Edited November 12, 2007 by fidei defensor

[dairygirl4u2c]

just some points tho could give a lot more than this given the convoluted nature of this thread...
-"creates dependency on welfare" needs defined.
this is because as fidei said, he thinks iron is saying that any welfare ever is creating dependency. if this is not the case, it needs explained.
-also, just by setting up the examples as "creates dependenc on welfare" is simply begging for scandal. most democratic voters are not voting in order to create dependency on welfare, and many if not most democratic politicians do not wish to do that. (they often do but not always and not all of them)
-i think it'd be better if you debated specific examples as i'm trying to do with socrates instead of vague abstractions that people always mistake from the their debating opponents.

[Guest Obedient2one]

Hey Everyone,

This has been a really long thread covering a wide range of topics. Most centering around politics. People get so excited about this topic. This topic has actually broken up my family. First off, we all have to be respectful of one another and not judge, even if views differ. Calling people names or making accusations about their beliefs is not the Christian thing to do. It undermines that persons dignity. If we love our brothers and sisters as we are called to do we will do things to build them up and not break them down.

Since I am on the topic of love. We are taught as Christians to love. Love is the greatest gift. Love produces life. Life is why Jesus died on the cross. Therefore by Jesus's example we as Christians are called to protect life! Love and life are at the core of Christianity. Is pro-choice founded out of love? Does it respect life? No and No. So pro-choice stands in direct contention to the core teachings of Jesus Christ. We are called to act on our faith and the teachings of Jesus. What makes a Christian a Christian is not just word alone, but action along with the word. The world rejects Christians because we honor him with our words, but deny him by our actions.

I love Hillary as a person and creation of God. However, that does not mean that I have to support her politically. Several of her political stances and governmental works are in direct contention with Christian beliefs. Whether she prays or not makes no difference. As a God fearing man I base my political decisions from the stance that one day I will come before the Lord. Having heard the word I am accountable to it and I will take action to align myself with it ... in EVERY aspect of my life. I pray that all Christians vote according to God's word and NOT our worldly conscience.

Abortion is a huge issue because it symbolizes and embodies the spiritual war going on in our society today. Christians are called to unity in John 17 (Jesus's last prayer). What a better way to show the world our beliefs than to stand united behind Jesus Christ and vote accordingly.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1417926' date='Nov 11 2007, 08:42 PM']Where are those WMDs now?[/quote]

I know some time ago Ironmonk posted a source - I believe it was from the UN - detailing the case that Saddam had WMDs. I don't know if it detailed what happened to them.

However, a new book is coming out this week that states that Saddam admits to faking he had WMDs in order to deter Iran from attacking. The book is [u]The Terrorist Watch: Inside the Desperate Race to Stop the Next Attack [/u]by Ronald Kessler, and it was based on interviews with FBI agent George Piro, who debriefed Saddam.

[url="http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/terror_watch/2007/11/12/48741.html"]http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/terror_watc...1/12/48741.html[/url]

Either way, the evidence shows me that the Bush administration did not deceptively manipulate the facts in order to invent a pretext for the invasion.