Hell... How Easy Is It?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1432469' date='Dec 10 2007, 08:11 PM']I voted that "there is a special place in heaven for Phatmassers."

I really don't like to speculate too much, because God only knows. If I put a lot of thought into it one way or another, I would become either 1.) lax with complacency and indifference or 2.) frozen with fear and despair.

I trust that whatever the amount is would be perfectly just, because God judges with perfect justice and mercy.[/quote]

Amen.

I voted that there is a special place in Heaven for Phatmassers. I also said that "good" people go to Heaven, as I am not defining goodness as stereotypical niceness - I'm defining good as a burning, passionate desire for God. Beyond that, I don't feel very confident in my judgement.

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]I believe there is an acception to every option on the poll.
I only chose one:

All "good" people will go to Heaven whether Christian or not.
[/size]

[KnightofChrist]

Many "good" people will burn in the fires of hell. While those outside the church have the smallest shred of hope of being saved on the mercy of God, there is no promise given to them. While neither can be absolute, because God alone absolutely knows, there is more evidence that person outside the church go to hell than there is they go to heaven.

Even for us in the Church we must work out our faith in fear and trembling.

[Church Punk]

What constitutes a good person? Am I a good person.

What about the sinfulness inside of me? What about all the times that I have turned my back on Christ, on other people? What about my involvement in the slaughter of millions of innocences everyday, simply carried out by the daily choices I make?

If God does not act with justice for these crimes he is not God.

The only hope I have is in His mercy. To speculate what his Divine Mercy is like for others I do not know. I just hope he has room for us after all this. I practice the sacraments and struggle through my own sinful inclinations. I pray that i will have the strength to overcome these problems and to one day gaze upon his face in eternity.

[Lena]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1433920' date='Dec 13 2007, 03:01 PM']Many "good" people will burn in the fires of hell. While those outside the church have the smallest shred of hope of being saved on the mercy of God, there is no promise given to them. While neither can be absolute, because God alone absolutely knows, there is more evidence that person outside the church go to hell than there is they go to heaven.

Even for us in the Church we must work out our faith in fear and trembling.[/quote]

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sounds right up your alley.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lena' post='1433957' date='Dec 13 2007, 05:33 PM']"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sounds right up your alley.[/quote]

Nope. I am Catholic not a follower of the Heretic Calvin.


---------

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

(Athanasian Creed; quoted and solemnly ratified [b]ex cathedra[/b] by Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, session 8, November 22, 1439)

“There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

(Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215)

"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church -- not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics -- cannot share in eternal life, and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; [the Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches] that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgivings and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and [the Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches] that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

([b]Ex cathedra solemn definition[/b] of Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (Ecumenical Council), "Cantate Domino," 1441; Denzinger)

“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members ... By divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and … this is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

(Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, May 5, 1824; paragraph 14)

Edited December 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Lena]

that's ok, it was a joke anyway

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lena' post='1434045' date='Dec 13 2007, 08:13 PM']that's ok, it was a joke anyway [/quote]

Oh well it was hard to tell...

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434042' date='Dec 13 2007, 08:09 PM']Nope. I am Catholic not a follower of the Heretic Calvin.
---------

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity … This is the Catholic Faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

(Athanasian Creed; quoted and solemnly ratified [b]ex cathedra[/b] by Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, session 8, November 22, 1439)

“There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

(Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215)

"The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church -- not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics -- cannot share in eternal life, and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; [the Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches] that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgivings and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and [the Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches] that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

([b]Ex cathedra solemn definition[/b] of Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence (Ecumenical Council), "Cantate Domino," 1441; Denzinger)

“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members ... By divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and … this is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”

(Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, May 5, 1824; paragraph 14)[/quote]
This is one of the reasons why I hate these kinds of discussions. Isolated, doom and gloom assertions that pretty much everybody is going to Hell. The other reason is people who want to put everybody in Heaven. Both viewpoints are absolute poison to the Catholic faith, as the Church has never taught either (even if they are just held as opinions). Honestly, I could go out and read the entire documents from which you got those quotes, and I'm sure that it would at least sound different from what those isolated quote look like.

I've read plenty of this carp and it really does nothing but drive a wedge of fear (not awe, the other kind of fear) between myself and Christ. Honestly, what do you hope to accomplish by claiming to have all of this evidence for the damnation of souls? Really. You come across as a Calvinistic fundamentalist--and I am not joking when I say that. I know you *profess* to be Catholic; maybe you should start acting like one.

Reading these quotes makes me wonder why I'd ever want to stay in the Catholic Church. I don't want to belong to a Church of Holy Fearmongers. Certainly, the Popes you quoted certainly are not out to scare us into the Church, but you sound like you are. And you know what? Maybe you're right. Maybe you actually guessed correctly, and non-Catholics have no more than a shred of hope of being saved. But to act like your guess is more than a shot in the dark is sheer foolishness.

[KnightofChrist]

The Church has taught that by the Mercy of God someone [b]maybe[/b] be saved outside the Church, however there is no promise, there is nothing close to a guarantee. This is a shred of hope. But those within the Church with the light of Christ have the promises from Christ that if we remain in Him until the end we can be saved. Again those outside in the darkness do not have this promise, and as long as they remain outside in the darkness they will never have this promise.

Again, God alone knows, but there is more evidence (ie from Holy Scripture, popes and saints throughout time) that persons outside the church go to hell than go to heaven. And it is God that has revealed it.

I believe whatever the Church believes. I would challenge you to an actual debate with facts than judgmental attacks on my person which are nothing less than hypocrisy.

[KnightofChrist]

This is not to say that grace is not given outside the Church. Grace is given to all men.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm"]The Athanasian Creed[/url]


Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity isTrinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have donegood shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434128' date='Dec 13 2007, 11:13 PM']The Church has taught that by the Mercy of God someone [b]maybe[/b] be saved outside the Church, however there is no promise, there is nothing close to a guarantee. This is a shred of hope. But those within the Church with the light of Christ have the promises from Christ that if we remain in Him until the end we can be saved. Again those outside in the darkness do not have this promise, and as long as they remain outside in the darkness they will never have this promise.

Again, God alone knows, but there is more evidence (ie from Holy Scripture, popes and saints throughout time) that persons outside the church go to hell than go to heaven. And it is God that has revealed it.

I believe whatever the Church believes. I would challenge you to an actual debate with facts than judgmental attacks on my person which are nothing less than hypocrisy.[/quote]
"Maybe" is a shred of hope? I never said that there was any guarantee, I said that we don't know. You seem to think that we have a pretty good idea of who is saved and who isn't. I'm saying we have practically none.

I could challenge you to a debate if I wanted to, and I just might take you up on that, but my aim is not to prove that we should be optimistic. I'm not trying to argue that there are more souls in heaven than in Hell. I'm only arguing that you have no more than an iota of evidence about the destination of non-Catholics. Frankly, if we were to hold such a debate, my only aim would be to prove to you that there is plenty of doubt as to whom goes where.

Of course, you seem so certain that non-Catholics only have a shred of hope. Pretty odd words coming from a guy who says that "only God knows." The Catholic Church has never, ever asserted that there is more evidence that persons outside the Church go to Hell. That's something to keep in mind if you "believe what the Church believes." Granted, the Church has asserted and re-asserted the importance of the Catholic Church and its role in salvation. My point is not to de-emphasize the Church. Yet, if you believe that the point of this teaching is to beaver dam Protestants or what-have-you, then I'm afraid you are misreading these documents.

And I don't think I attacked you--I attacked your comments and told you how you sound, but that is not a personal attack. I never said that you are a Calvinist, for example, I said that you sounded like one and that you were acting like one.

[KnightofChrist]

Heres something that would be fun to debate.

The Church recognizes most all Christian Trinitarian Baptisms, even those performed by heretics. The point? The point is since the Church recognizes these baptisms to be true, and real, these people are indeed baptised Catholic, yes thats right. Because baptism is the way into the Church.

Now that is something to think about.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434157' date='Dec 13 2007, 11:55 PM'][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm"]The Athanasian Creed[/url]
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity isTrinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have donegood shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.[/quote]
You act like this is news to me. Tell me, where does your "only a shred of hope" stipulation get defined in this Creed? As far as I can tell it doesn't even address invincible ignorance, etc. And like it or not, that is a teaching of the Church.

You are listing the normative requirements for slavation in a debate that completely centers on the extraordinary requirements for salvation.

Again, my aim is not to make a case for Universalism or for optimism. My aim is to simply point out that there is enough uncertainty regarding the salvation of non-Catholics so as to render any speculation regarding the topic, useless. Of course, such uncertainty is reason enough to stay in the Church anyways.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434172' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:10 AM']Heres something that would be fun to debate.

The Church recognizes most all Christian Trinitarian Baptisms, even those performed by heretics. The point? The point is since the Church recognizes these baptisms to be true, and real, these people are indeed baptised Catholic, yes thats right. Because baptism is the way into the Church.

Now that is something to think about.[/quote]
Your point being? That there are ways to obtain grace from outside the Church? Yes, I know. There are also such things as baptism by desire and by blood? Baptism by blood is one thing, but how do we know how many people are truly baptized by desire? I can narrow it down to anywhere between 0% and 100% of non-Catholics may be baptized by desire.

Again, Baptism by Desire is a mystery. We just don't know. Period.

[XIX]

Honestly, from what I know about science, a very large percentage of the world's population does not even make it out of the womb. Furthermore, a lot of people die before the age of seven, and some of those were probably not baptized in water. All told, I would not be surprised if 50% of the world's population dies before the age of reason.

So if I can prove that there is hope for the unbaptized infants, then I can essentially prove that there is hope that a large portion of the non-Catholic population will end up in Heaven. I don't have to prove that they are in Heaven, I only have to prove that they have more than a shred of hope.

Ah-ha!

[quote]1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.[/quote]

Of course if you want to argue that baptism makes you a member of the Catholic Church, then that creates even more befuddlement because now we don't even know who dies Catholic and who doesn't.

I think I should call it a night now. I've said most everything I wanted to say.

Edited December 14, 2007 by XIX

[Ash Wednesday]

Knight of Christ I'm a bit confused by your usage of the term of a solemn proclamation "Ex Cathedra" -- when I think of the usage of the term, I think of the Papal Infallability term first defined in 1870 (Vatican I) and its singular usage in history so far -- Pius XII when proclaiming the Assumption of Mary. Just confused by the terminology -- could you or someone explain? Thanks.

Edited December 14, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='XIX' post='1434169' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:05 AM']"Maybe" is a shred of hope? I never said that there was any guarantee, I said that we don't know. You seem to think that we have a pretty good idea of who is saved and who isn't. I'm saying we have practically none.

I could challenge you to a debate if I wanted to, and I just might take you up on that, but my aim is not to prove that we should be optimistic. I'm not trying to argue that there are more souls in heaven than in Hell. I'm only arguing that you have no more than an iota of evidence about the destination of non-Catholics. Frankly, if we were to hold such a debate, my only aim would be to prove to you that there is plenty of doubt as to whom goes where.[/quote]

The Mercy of God with no promise from God is a shred of hope. The Church alone has the light of Christ and the fullness of truth and His promises, which those outside the Church do not have. We can have some ideas of the types of souls that can be, not will be saved, note the difference. The souls within the Church can be saved because they are part of the body of Christ, and if, note if, they remain until the end they can be, note can be saved. However those outside, maybe saved, note maybe, by the Mercy of God, but they do not have the light as we do and do not have the promises as we do. They are in a greater danger of going to hell than souls in the Church. This is why the Church goes out to all nations and preaches the word of God which is salvation. So there is not as much doubt and there is some idea of what kinds of groups are in greater danger of hell. Or there would be no need to preach salvation or want to stay with the Church. If there was penalty of doubt as to salvation in the church there would be little want to stay in the church. If there was penalty of doubt as to salvation outside it there would little want to preach salvation.

[quote name='XIX' post='1434169' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:05 AM']Of course, you seem so certain that non-Catholics only have a shred of hope. Pretty odd words coming from a guy who says that "only God knows."[/quote]

Souls outside the Church only have the mercy of God and no promises. The mercy of God is hope but without a promise, as souls within the Church have, it is a much smaller hope, a shred, which we can not be sure of, which again is why we MUST preach the salvation of Christ to them.

[quote name='XIX' post='1434169' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:05 AM']The Catholic Church has never, ever asserted that there is more evidence that persons outside the Church go to Hell. That's something to keep in mind if you "believe what the Church believes." Granted, the Church has asserted and re-asserted the importance of the Catholic Church and its role in salvation. My point is not to de-emphasize the Church. Yet, if you believe that the point of this teaching is to beaver dam Protestants or what-have-you, then I'm afraid you are misreading these documents.[/quote]

The Church has taught that the souls outside the Church are in great danger of hell, or otherwise there would be little to no need to preach salvation to them. The Church has taught this and it is partly in post 26.

Here are some of the promises we have from Our Lord that if we obey we can be saved.

You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.
You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.
You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.
You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9
You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21
You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29

Those outside when it comes down to it rely on the mercy of God, which is good, but no promise.

[quote name='XIX' post='1434169' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:05 AM']And I don't think I attacked you--I attacked your comments and told you how you sound, but that is not a personal attack. I never said that you are a Calvinist, for example, I said that you sounded like one and that you were acting like one.[/quote]

That is not at all the way you put it forth, and if you are honest with yourself you will see it.

[quote]You come across as a Calvinistic fundamentalist--and I am not joking when I say that. I know you *profess* to be Catholic; maybe you should start acting like one.[/quote]

Note you said "[b]You[/b] come across as [b]a Calvinistic fundamentalist
'[/b], referring to me directly, not what I sound like. Then state you are not joking, which means your serious. Second you state I am not "acting" catholic. That is a personal attack.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1434185' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:47 AM']Knight of Christ I'm a bit confused by your usage of the term of a solemn proclamation "Ex Cathedra" -- when I think of the usage of the term, I think of the Papal Infallability term first defined in 1870 (Vatican I) and its singular usage in history so far -- Pius XII when proclaiming the Assumption of Mary. Just confused by the terminology -- could you or someone explain? Thanks. [/quote]

As I'm sure you know while Papal Infallibility may have been "defined" at Vatican I, this does not mean it did not exist since the beginning of the church and taught by her.

Here is a wonderful definition of Ex Cathedra

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm"]Ex Cathedra[/url]

Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable."

Edited December 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist