Hell... How Easy Is It?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='XIX' post='1434173' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:12 AM']You act like this is news to me. Tell me, where does your "only a shred of hope" stipulation get defined in this Creed? As far as I can tell it doesn't even address invincible ignorance, etc. And like it or not, that is a teaching of the Church.[/quote]

I did not make [b]any [/b]argument when I posted the creed. I just posted it. And yes I do believe Church teaching about invincible ignorance.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp"]Jimmy Akin[/url] backs what I've been trying to say.

"[i]Unfortunately, there are a number of erroneous views regarding salvation and invincible ignorance that need to be pointed out. First, the fact that someone is invincibly ignorant of the true faith [b]is not a ticket to heaven.[/b] [b]A person who is not culpable for sins against faith may still be culpable for other mortal sins-the same ones people of faith can commit-and may be damned on that account.[/b]

Second, the fact that someone is invincibly ignorant does not mean that they should not be evangelized.[b] The farther from the center of God's truth a person is the more spiritual jeopardy they are in. Even if they are not culpable for sins against faith, the fact they are ignorant of the true religion and do not have access to the sacraments means that they are more likely to commit mortal sin and thus more likely to be damned.[/b] Christ did not leave us the option of only evangelizing some peoples (Mark 16:15) or of only teaching them some doctrines (Matt. 28:20). Consequently, it is a false understanding of evangelism or a false spirit of ecumenism that would suggest that classes of people can be left in total or partial ignorance of the true faith on the pretext that they are invincibly ignorant and should not be disturbed.[/i]"

[quote name='XIX' post='1434173' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:12 AM']You are listing the normative requirements for salvation in a debate that completely centers on the extraordinary requirements for salvation.

Again, my aim is not to make a case for Universalism or for optimism. My aim is to simply point out that there is enough uncertainty regarding the salvation of non-Catholics so as to render any speculation regarding the topic, useless. Of course, such uncertainty is reason enough to stay in the Church anyways. [/quote]

If there was so much uncertainty regarding the salvation of souls outside the church as to render any speculation regarding the topic useless, there'd be no need to preach salvation. Unless souls outside the church are in a greater danger of going to hell, there's no need to worry about their souls.


[quote name='XIX' post='1434176' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:17 AM']Your point being? That there are ways to obtain grace from outside the Church? Yes, I know. There are also such things as baptism by desire and by blood? Baptism by blood is one thing, but how do we know how many people are truly baptized by desire? I can narrow it down to anywhere between 0% and 100% of non-Catholics may be baptized by desire.

Again, Baptism by Desire is a mystery. We just don't know. Period.[/quote]

My point being I'm trying to agree with you on something, instead of us making enemies out of one another. Your right we don't know how many person outside the church have desire for baptism or would if they knew about Mother Church. Which is why these souls are in a more of a danger of hell than us, because if we cant say for sure knowing Christ, and in His light, how can they know outside in the dark away from His Light, His Church, His Truth, and His Holy Sacraments?


[quote name='XIX' post='1434183' date='Dec 14 2007, 12:35 AM']Honestly, from what I know about science, a very large percentage of the world's population does not even make it out of the womb. Furthermore, a lot of people die before the age of seven, and some of those were probably not baptized in water. All told, I would not be surprised if 50% of the world's population dies before the age of reason.

So if I can prove that there is hope for the unbaptized infants, then I can essentially prove that there is hope that a large portion of the non-Catholic population will end up in Heaven. I don't have to prove that they are in Heaven, I only have to prove that they have more than a shred of hope.

Ah-ha!

[quote]QUOTE
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.[/quote]

Of course if you want to argue that baptism makes you a member of the Catholic Church, then that creates even more befuddlement because now we don't even know who dies Catholic and who doesn't.

I think I should call it a night now. I've said most everything I wanted to say.
[/quote]

CC 1261 states what I have said the whole time. "the Church [u]can only[/u] entrust them to the mercy of God." We can only hope in the Mercy of God, because their is no promise they will be saved. That hope compared to the hope and promises for those in the Church is small, tiny in comparison, a shred. Yes Christ wants all to be saved, but that does not mean all are saved. This will upset you but God could remain a perfectly just and merciful God, and send every one of them to hell, as well as everyone in the Church. The difference, Christ gives us His word that those are part of His Body, His Church, and remain until the end can be saved. I am sorry to say again others do not have this fullness of Truth.

Edited December 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[XIX]

Well we can argue until we are blue in the face but it's obviously going in circles. The facts of the matter are this:

1) You believe the Church's teachings on salvation are to be interpreted, in part, as evidence that non-Catholics are most likely going to lose their souls.
2) I believe they are to be interpreted as what we should to assure our own salvation, and to help others.
3) I think it is imperative to preach the Gospel, regardless of whether the subjects have a shred of hope or two shreds or an entire IHOP pancake of hope. I do agree completely that being Catholic gives you a much much better shot than whatever shred/double shred/pancake/loaf of bread that they Protestants have.
4) You think that if there was so much uncertainty regarding the salvation of souls outside the church as to render any speculation regarding the topic useless, there'd be no need to preach salvation.
5) We both agree that it is imperative to preach the Truth of the Catholic Church.
6) We both agree that the Catholics have a much better shot than non-Catholics.
7) I promise I didn't mean to call you a Calvinist. I don't think you are one and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making a judgment on your person. I should also apologize for the tone of this thread, because I was *definitely* imprudent in choosing some of my words.

I'm also not sure we agree on the definition of the term "shred," but that's more a debate on etymology, not theology. Either way, I think this sums it up rather nicely.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='XIX' post='1434328' date='Dec 14 2007, 02:08 PM']Well we can argue until we are blue in the face but it's obviously going in circles. The facts of the matter are this:

1) You believe the Church's teachings on salvation are to be interpreted, in part, as evidence that non-Catholics are most likely going to lose their souls.
2) I believe they are to be interpreted as what we should to assure our own salvation, and to help others.
3) I think it is imperative to preach the Gospel, regardless of whether the subjects have a shred of hope or two shreds or an entire IHOP pancake of hope. I do agree completely that being Catholic gives you a much much better shot than whatever shred/double shred/pancake/loaf of bread that they Protestants have.
4) You think that if there was so much uncertainty regarding the salvation of souls outside the church as to render any speculation regarding the topic useless, there'd be no need to preach salvation.
5) We both agree that it is imperative to preach the Truth of the Catholic Church.
6) We both agree that the Catholics have a much better shot than non-Catholics.
7) I promise I didn't mean to call you a Calvinist. I don't think you are one and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making a judgment on your person. I should also apologize for the tone of this thread, because I was *definitely* imprudent in choosing some of my words.

I'm also not sure we agree on the definition of the term "shred," but that's more a debate on etymology, not theology. Either way, I think this sums it up rather nicely.[/quote]



I humbly accept your apology. Respectfully I do not agree with what you say I believe. Because the wording is changed and when the wording is changed the meaning is changed. I believe what I have said I believe.

Shred simply means a small chance, a very small chance without the promises of Christ. Mother Church is the cradle of salvation, She and Christ are one, and Christ is salvation. Those outside in the dark, who are not part of His body are in a greater danger of hell. Because they are lost, they do not have His salvation.
Christ saves us from sin, Christ saves us from the fires of hell, [u]this is[/u] His salvation, His is why He came, this is why He died, so that we could be saved from sin and death, which is hell. Christ wants all to be saved, this is why He gave us our holy duty to preach His salvation, so lost souls will be saved from sin, death, and hell. Lost souls by the very nature of being lost are in a much greater danger of hell, than those who have come home into loving arms of Mother Church.

Jesus Christ son of the Living God, [u]gave us His word[/u] that if we trust in and follow Him and obey His commandments, and remain with Him until the end, we can be saved. "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

As long as lost souls remain lost outside the Church, all they have to stand is the [u]hope[/u] of the mercy of God. Which is good no doubt. But without any word or promise such as we have, they are in a greater danger of being lost forever.

Edited December 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[carrdero]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434378' date='Dec 14 2007, 05:32 PM']As long as lost souls remain lost outside the Church, all they have to stand is the [u]hope[/u] of the mercy of God. Which is good no doubt.[/quote]
No doubt.

[quote]KnightofChrist writes: But without any word or promise such as we have, they are in a greater danger of being lost forever.[/quote]

Of course, I think.

[KnightofChrist]

From the Doctrinal Note on some Aspects of Evangelization

I. Introduction

1. Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to proclaim the Gospel, calling all people to conversion and faith (cf. Mk 1:14-15). After his resurrection, he entrusted the continuation of his mission of evangelization to the Apostles (cf. Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15; Lk 24:4-7; Acts 1:3): "As the Father has sent me, so I send you" (Jn 20:21, cf. 17:18). By means of the Church, Christ wants to be present in every historical epoch, every place on earth and every sector of society, in order to reach every person, so that there may be one flock and one shepherd (cf. Jn 10:16): "Go out into the whole world and preach the Gospel to every creature. [b]He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned"[/b] (Mk 16:15-16).

The Apostles, therefore, "prompted by the Spirit, invited all to change their lives, to be converted and to be baptized", because the "[b]pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation"[/b]. It is the same Lord Jesus Christ who, present in his Church, goes before the work of evangelizers, accompanies it, follows it, and makes their labours bear fruit: what took place at the origins of Christian history continues throughout its entire course.

[XIX]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1434378' date='Dec 14 2007, 05:32 PM']Shred simply means a small chance, a very small chance without the promises of Christ. Mother Church is the cradle of salvation, She and Christ are one, and Christ is salvation. Those outside in the dark, who are not part of His body are in a greater danger of hell. Because they are lost, they do not have His salvation.
Christ saves us from sin, Christ saves us from the fires of hell, [u]this is[/u] His salvation, His is why He came, this is why He died, so that we could be saved from sin and death, which is hell. Christ wants all to be saved, this is why He gave us our holy duty to preach His salvation, so lost souls will be saved from sin, death, and hell. Lost souls by the very nature of being lost are in a much greater danger of hell, than those who have come home into loving arms of Mother Church.

Jesus Christ son of the Living God, [u]gave us His word[/u] that if we trust in and follow Him and obey His commandments, and remain with Him until the end, we can be saved. "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

As long as lost souls remain lost outside the Church, all they have to stand is the [u]hope[/u] of the mercy of God. Which is good no doubt. But without any word or promise such as we have, they are in a greater danger of being lost forever.[/quote]
Yes, you essentially said that already.

And I said that the Church's stance on salvation should be read as a recipe for piety, not a prediction on who's in Heaven or Hell. I also said that there's no point in trying to figure out who's already in Heaven or Hell, just focus on whatever it is that you can control--i.e. preach Catholicism so that you might be saved and maybe even drag a few (or a lot) of souls with you.

[quote]God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='XIX' post='1435018' date='Dec 16 2007, 07:32 PM']Yes, you essentially said that already.

And I said that the Church's stance on salvation should be read as a recipe for piety, not a prediction on who's in Heaven or Hell. I also said that there's no point in trying to figure out who's already in Heaven or Hell, just focus on whatever it is that you can control--i.e. preach Catholicism so that you might be saved and maybe even drag a few (or a lot) of souls with you.[/quote]

I'm glad we can end this in agreement. We can not say what individual is in heaven or what individual is in hell. Aside from God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the angels, and saints, and as for hell you know who and all his gang. The Church can say that certain human Saints are in heaven, but to the best of my knowledge has never said what certain human souls are in hell. Still She does say which kinds of souls or groups of peoples are in a greater danger of hell. And that being part of the Church is being part of the hope in the salvation of Jesus Christ.

Peace in Christ!
KoC

[XIX]

[N/A Gone]

It is weird, when I became catholic I figured I was screwed. But as a protestant I assumed that everyone was screwed and grace would be understanding. I think that I continue to grow I understand a hybrid of that few where we are responsable to move forward, but we are being helped to move forward and we will never get to where we want, but the movement is salvation.

just how I see it.