The Issue At Hand

[Socrates]

[quote name='Catholictothecore' post='1443917' date='Jan 10 2008, 01:26 AM']Look, unless you know exactly what to look for, it's pretty hard to find a ancient latin text online, even through google.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Private_Revelation.asp"]link here. [/url] I know it's not in the great language, but it is from the CCC.

What I derive this to mean is that there is no harm in believing. Some of us, many of us, do believe. I personally think we are living in the last 20 years of civilization as we know it. Don't forget that the world can very easily change over night. The night from 9/10 to 9/11, 2001 springs to mind.

As for obeying a "gut feeling"...maybe that's too crude a phrase. The Scripture often speaks of one individual "being driven." I know that many times throughout the course of my life, I have made a decision, often life changing, based on prayer and a "gut feeling." I've learned to trust it. I even picked my major in school based on it When I don't have complete confidence, it doesn't seem to work out to well. To me, that says something. So, maybe that's what these "revelations" are. God pouring out his grace on some people who just want to be near him, the same as those who don't believe it. I personally think that it's requires more faith to believe than not to. Why is that so hard to accept?

What Abram and the "gut feeling" he had that said "Leave this land of your fathers?" What about Abraham's servent who had been sent to find a wife for Issac? When he didn't know what to do, he prayed "Dear Lord, let the one who offers me water, and who offers to water the camels as well, be the one for my masters son." He followed a "gut feeling," and through it, God fulfilled a pretty "flattering" promise to Abram that went along the lines of "I shall make you a father to many nations."

What about David and the "gut feeling" he had that inspired him to offer his sling, his person, and his life and death, to the service of King Saul, a man of whom God had already spoken to Samuel with these words "Why do you still mourn for Saul, whom I have rejected as king of Israel?" And, what about Solomon, who had the "gut feeling" to pray for wisdom when the Lord asked him which gift he would have of God?

And how about the "gut feeling" that made Peter, Andrew, James, John, Phillip, Bartholomew, Mathew, Thomas, James the Lesser, Simon the Zealot, Jude and Judas, follow Christ. Even Judas followed Christ, and what happened to him, sadly, was...neccesary. His betrayal, that is, not his suicide, nor his despair.

What about the "gut feeling" that told men of God, even to the days of Karol Wjotyla, living in Nazi occupied Poland, to be a saint.

While it is true that not every gut feeling is the movement of the Spirit, I think it is safe to say that some most definitely are.[/quote]
"Gut feelings" can definitely not be held as the final authority on spiritual truths.

At least two people on here have stated that their gut feelings have led them to doubt the truth of the Medjugore apparitions. Apparently your gut feelings lead you to do the opposite. Whose "gut feelings" are correct?
Are we to doubt the sincerity of people's "gut feelings" which contradict your own?

People can have all sorts or contradictory "gut feelings" about things, which can come from all kinds of sources, and lead them to all sorts of different conclusions. People's "gut feelings" can lead them to leave the Catholic Church, follow false spiritual teachers, join weird cults, even commit crimes.
Determining truth has to based on more than feelings - otherwise our faith risks being reduced to mere emotionalism.

And the bible never speaks of "gut feelings" in the passages you bring up - that is merely your own interpretation.

And I read back over your original post and - for your talk of lack of charity - it seemed quite judgmental and uncharitable itself; unless I misread you, it seemed to be calling into question the Faith of those who disbelieve in Medjugore. Such is not your place; I don't care what your "gut feelings" tell you.

[Socrates]

[accidental double post]

Edited January 11, 2008 by Socrates

[Catholictothecore]

I know the Bible doesn't speak of "gut feelings" in those places. But...I think it's a realistic way of describing how discernment is for a lot of people. So, let me admend a little bit; PRAYER, and gut feelings. I know that I have not come to believe simply by an on the spot decision, but through prayer. And believing is the choice that God has given me peace about. That's one of the things to check against when discerning spirits; God's Spirit will bring you peace.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I don't think it's a good idea to connect gut feelings with prayer, or to suggest that one can supplement the other.

I prayed about what sort of work God wants me to do when I move to Newcastle in July. I received an answer. I didn't like the answer. It went [i]against[/i] my gut feeling and made me feel very nervous, as it isn't connected to the study or the teaching of English literature and linguistics - my current field. I couldn't imagine leaving my secure knowledge base behind and doing something different, especially something that looks as difficult and unfamiliar as this job is going to be. My family and friends also had their reservations. But as the months unfolded, I began to see where God was going with this plan, and now I'm quite happy about it. If I had paid attention to my faulty gut, where would I be?

Instinct causes me to panic whenever I need to go to the supermarket. (I'm terrified of crowds.) Prayer tells me to remain calm and to try my best to get all the shopping done, taking breaks where necessary. Clearly your prayer can contradict your gut. It has to sometimes, otherwise we would start trusting our instincts more than we trust God - and faith in your feelings is easily exploited by the devil.

[jmjtina]

Medjegorie (sp?) has been somewhere I would like to pilgrimmage.

Fatima apparitions should not be judged on the webmaster. A website doesn't validate an apparition, the Church does.

No marian apparition is a MUST for believers. However, my devotion to our Lady of Guadalupe has strengthened my faith and love for Jesus, especially through the rosary.

Done correctly and completely by faith, Mary will always "magnify" the Lord and you can't go wrong with a devotion to the Mother of God.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I have done some extensive research on the Pope Urban VIII alleged quote and have paid good money in the process.

There is no proof, to date, that he ever made the quote.

What we [b]do[/b] know is that Urban VIII wrote a Bull called "Sanctissimus Dominus Noster" that dealt with this very subject of private revelations. Catholic Encyclopedia has a decent summary in its Urban VIII entry but there's a bit more to the actual document than meets the eye. I personally own a copy of the Latin text from its original printed Volume, accompanied by an English translation. This document influenced the popes up to and including Pope St. Pius X in his Encyclical "Pascendi Dominici Gregis" (paragraph 55).

If someone was to find the exact reference for the alleged Pope Urban VIII quote, I'd be plenty glad for it.

-KJS

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1586501' date='Jun 30 2008, 12:01 AM']I have done some extensive research on the Pope Urban VIII alleged quote and have paid good money in the process.

There is no proof, to date, that he ever made the quote.

What we [b]do[/b] know is that Urban VIII wrote a Bull called "Sanctissimus Dominus Noster" that dealt with this very subject of private revelations. Catholic Encyclopedia has a decent summary in its Urban VIII entry but there's a bit more to the actual document than meets the eye. I personally own a copy of the Latin text from its original printed Volume, accompanied by an English translation. This document influenced the popes up to and including Pope St. Pius X in his Encyclical "Pascendi Dominici Gregis" (paragraph 55).

If someone was to find the exact reference for the alleged Pope Urban VIII quote, I'd be plenty glad for it.

-KJS[/quote]

Even if he did say that, this does not mean that it has to be taken as an infallible statement.
Popes may express their opinion on a lot of things (fortunately) without intending to make binding declarations for the entire people of God. There are different degrees of authority which we have to take into account when trying to understand statements from popes or councils in past times. The first question to ask is : what kind of document is it ? A letter or homily from the Pope does not have the same level of authority as an encyclical or a dogmatic constitution. The second question is : inside this document, which is the importance that the author intends to give to this statement ? Third we also have to be aware of the historical context in which a document was written. Finally, some words or expressions used 4 centuries ago may mean something slightly different then today...

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='Fr. Bruno' post='1586542' date='Jun 29 2008, 05:50 PM']Even if he did say that, this does not mean that it has to be taken as an infallible statement.
Popes may express their opinion on a lot of things (fortunately) without intending to make binding declarations for the entire people of God. There are different degrees of authority which we have to take into account when trying to understand statements from popes or councils in past times. The first question to ask is : what kind of document is it ? A letter or homily from the Pope does not have the same level of authority as an encyclical or a dogmatic constitution. The second question is : inside this document, which is the importance that the author intends to give to this statement ? Third we also have to be aware of the historical context in which a document was written. Finally, some words or expressions used 4 centuries ago may mean something slightly different then today...[/quote]

Fr. Bruno,
-None of your questions can be answered until the alleged quote's promoters provide a citation. I'll be happy to answer your questions as soon as I get that citation and have time to examine the facts. Until such a time happens, however, it is best to stick with what we do know.

Peace!
-Kevin Symonds