Jesus Camp

["Kyrie eleison"]

Have you seen the movie? Comments? to see [url="http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5745767401002835964"]click here[/url]

Edited January 29, 2008 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Laudate_Dominum]

I've seen the movie but I don't have many comments. Not exactly my idea of reasonable or healthy religion but I think the video partly exists to spread stereotypes and negative vibes about religion and Christianity in particular. Kind of a trashy video in this regard. I hope that what the video presents does not actually reflect mainstream evangelical Christianity.

["Kyrie eleison"]

It was very disturbing to me and the intensity of emotions coming from these kids. The speaking in tongues, instantaneously on demand...and the being slain in the spirit as they are on the floor flaying, IMO is freaky!

Edited January 29, 2008 by "Kyrie eleison"

["Kyrie eleison"]

In watching this movie and seeing the kids speaking in tongues, has anyone ever heard a Catholic speak in tongues in the charismatic movement? I have been to my aunts' pentecostal service and have witnessed this and many falling to the ground and flaying uncontrollably, but [b]never[/b] like some of these children on Jesus camp. What are your opinions on this?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1452487' date='Jan 29 2008, 02:01 PM']has anyone ever heard a Catholic speak in tongues in the charismatic movement?[/quote]
Absolutely! While it would not be fair to say that this film portrays what I experienced in the Catholic charismatic movement I did have my share of flashbacks whilst watching it.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1452362' date='Jan 29 2008, 03:04 AM']I hope that what the video presents does not actually reflect mainstream evangelical Christianity.[/quote]


As a former evangelical Christian of 20 years, I can tell you that it does not. We were members of mega evangelical churches in New Jersey, Kentucky, and Georgia. The type of "worship" displayed in Jesus Camp is definately out there, but it isn't mainstream.

Here are some good examples of mainstream evangelical churches:

The biggest, perhaps most influential in the evangelical movement - [url="http://www.willowcreek.org/"]http://www.willowcreek.org/[/url]
Purpose Driven Rick Warren's - www.saddleback.com
Growing like crazy and planting churches everywhere in Georgia - www.northpoint.org

Edited January 29, 2008 by Gal. 5:22,23

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' post='1452511' date='Jan 29 2008, 02:22 PM']As a former evangelical Christian of 20 years, I can tell you that it does not. We were members of mega evangelical churches in New Jersey, Kentucky, and Georgia. The type of "worship" displayed in Jesus Camp is definately out there, but it isn't mainstream.

Here are some good examples of mainstream evangelical churches:

The biggest, perhaps most influential in the evangelical movement - [url="http://www.willowcreek.org/"]http://www.willowcreek.org/[/url]
Purpose Driven Rick Warren's - [url="http://www.willowcreek.org/"]http://www.willowcreek.org/[/url]
Growing like crazy and planting churches everywhere in Georgia - www.northpoint.org[/quote]
Thank you! I think this is an important point because I suspect part of the intent behind this movie is to discredit Christians and "evil conservatives" in general. I know the makers of the film say they aren't doing this but at the very least I'm sure other people are leveraging the movie in this way. Organized religion is evil brainwashing and fundamentalist fanaticism!

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1452510' date='Jan 29 2008, 02:21 PM']Absolutely! While it would not be fair to say that this film portrays what I experienced in the Catholic charismatic movement I did have my share of flashbacks whilst watching it.[/quote]

Laudate_Dominum,

So, in your opinion do you believe that these children were really filled with the SPIRIT? IMO, they are indoctrinated early on and these happenings of speaking in tongues could be a forced emotion.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1452521' date='Jan 29 2008, 02:31 PM']Laudate_Dominum,

So, in your opinion do you believe that these children were really filled with the SPIRIT? IMO, they are indoctrinated early on and these happenings of speaking in tongues could be a forced emotion.[/quote]
Based on what the video presents it all seems like classic brain washing and emotionalism. I find the contents of the movie to be creepy but all I was trying to say above is that this disturbing characteristics were not present (at least not in abundance) within the sphere of charismatic Catholicism that I experienced in the past. I'm not charismatic and I'm actually very skeptical and critical of the movement but this particular film is not really applicable to the Catholic movement as I experienced it, except perhaps in a most superficial and external way.
Are the children really filled with the Spirit? I don't know. I don't think that this sect is a good example of authentic Christianity and overall it is disturbing, but I don't want to assume that everything that those children are experiencing is simply the result of an overbearing and manipulative sect. One of the reasons why I find it to be so disturbing is that it involves the Christian faith. If this were a video about a radical Islamic sect it would be upsetting but probably wouldn't make me ill in the same way.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Based on what the video presents it all seems like classic brain washing and emotionalism. I find the contents of the movie to be creepy but all I was trying to say above is that this disturbing characteristic were not present (at least not in abundance) within the sphere of charismatic Catholicism that I experienced in the past. I'm not charismatic and I'm actually very skeptical and critical of the movement but this particular film is not really applicable to the Catholic movement as I experienced it, except perhaps in a most superficial and external way.[/quote]

I have never experienced a Catholic speaking in tongues and was just curious. I have seen many creepy things in the evangelical movement concerning tongues so it really has freaked me out and I too am skeptical of the movement and find it may even be the work of evil.

[jeffpugh]

I've just watched bits here and there... I didn't catch any of the speaking in tongues, but it was quite disturbing just the same because all of these tiny children were being force fed emotions and so forth to call them to repent from their sins. The water bottle thing was sort of corny and cheap. Maybe I'm too used to nice vessels (and actual blessed water) from being Catholic

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1452538' date='Jan 29 2008, 02:55 PM']I've just watched bits here and there... I didn't catch any of the speaking in tongues, but it was quite disturbing just the same because all of these tiny children were being force fed emotions and so forth to call them to repent from their sins. The water bottle thing was sort of corny and cheap. Maybe I'm too used to nice vessels (and actual blessed water) from being Catholic [/quote]

Yeah, I noticed how young these children were and the intensity in their eyes. It is the bible belt and they are indoctrinated at a very young age and this is very normal to them as they live in this manner 24/7. I believe that many of these children will have a mental or emotional breakdown with these emotions running so intense.

[jeffpugh]

They must! soo much is coming on so fast.

[MStar]

Eh I had just written a fair-sized comment, and went to post it, and my internet died! Bleh!
Anyway, yeah, I could only stomach about 15 minutes of that movie. Did you watch it all Kyrie? It was disturbing. I think it was anti-evangelical though, what with the creepy music they played while they showed the kids speaking in tounges and all. Also, the lady sounded like she wanted to give Christian kids the type of training that terrorist's kids get. All brain-washed type stuff. And they made homeschoolers look bad...having the woman hammer into her son's head that evolutionists are stupid and only creationism is possible, without any reasoning, and saying 75% of homeschoolers are evangelical (meaning the kind they showed on the video, I'm sure not all evangelicals are like that!). That's the kind of stuff that makes other people leery of homeschoolers.

I've never seen someone speak in tounges before, but my aunt's best friend has had the gift of healing, and aunt said that when her friend prayed over her, she murmered in tounges, and it sounded like a real, different language, and actually helped aunt to concentrate on praying with her friend. Her friend wasn't concious of it either. I've also seen many people "slain in the spirit", my mom and sister included, and the people who are always look very peaceful and happy, not jerking around weird. They told me it was like being inveloped in love, like being held by a loving precense. So part of me wonders whether those kids are really moved with the spirit when they do stuff like that, though of course, I really wouldn't know. Still does seem weird.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just saw it...a few random comments:

1) I believe that the little girl in the bowling alley was handing out Chick Tracts. LOL
2) The movie's attempt to connect Sam Alito to the Evangelical movement was pretty lame.
3) The Jesus Camp's use of emotionally breaking kids down smacks of indoctrination.
4) I think it's a bit hypocritical that the movie producers would chastize the "Jesus Camp" for manipulating kids, when the movie's own background music has the potential to manipulate and exagerate the emotional reaction of viewers.
5) Modern "speaking in tongues" is pretty lame, and it has nothing to do with what St. Paul was writing about.
6) The radio announcer featured throughout had a severe lack of noodle power. By his reasoning, he believes that democracy only works when Christians and their views are excluded from the process. It just makes my head spin to follow such logic.

[MissyP89]

I saw it about a year ago...gave me the creeps. It left me with strong feelings against such harsh indoctrination against children.

"I was saved at 5." Heh, I was lucky to count to 20 at five years old.

The emotional appeal may work for a while, but not forever. While I wish I had youth experiences growing up to nurture my faith, it all seems like a caught in the moment thing. Like lust, it fades over time. It's just feelings...nothing real.

Of course, some of them are probably truly devoted. Good for them, I guess. Definitely not my style. I'll stick to Mass, thanks.

[blovedwolfofgod]

"warlocks are enemies of God, and had this been the old testament, HARRY POTTER WOULD HAVE BEEN PUT TO DEATH!"

[blovedwolfofgod]

the kid speaks well, but he just says generic things... like ive heard so many times in my walks with the protestants...

[blovedwolfofgod]

so, beginning and end, it was an attack on conservatives and the republican party. It took well meaning, though misled and possibly insane, people who are somewhat fringe (pentacostals arent THAT huge), made it to represent a huge portion of the christian and amerian population, insinuated that they are all like this, then used this flawed and malicious line of reason to attack a political idea. Every single person on that video has just been used by the very things they wish to combat.

[BG45]

I've seen it...a number of times. Reminds me some of what I grew up with, and had me in the shakes at points the first time I saw it. I literally had nightmares.

Just some observations:
1) The prayer over the cutout of Bush for him to elect "Righteous Judges" made me flashback to a Youth Retreat the year [u]Passion of the Christ[/u] came out on DVD. We watched PotC and Christ of course recieved a round of applause for rising from the dead. George W. Bush got a larger applause when he was in a slide show later.

2) "I got saved at 5". I was made to feel an outsider at my church for not having done this. I went forward for Baptism at 16, and yeah...everyone I had grown up with there went forward before 10. (Although most later admitted they hadn't realized what they were doing in the emotion of it all.)

3) The flopping about in tongues type thing is something I've only experienced once, not personally flopping about, and it was in the evangelical fringe in a Pentecostal church.
a) Tongues...okay, I'm not saying they're faking, but notice how different everyone's is? It fits with the whole speaking in a multitude scripture, but, just no. Notice how Becky's at least seems to have a similar syntax structure at least, the kids seem to be spewing gibberish. Basically what Mateo said...it's not really tongues, but I didn't want to just say that.
b) "Slain in the spirit", does not equal flopping around like you're having a seizure. That sort of thing is what I'd expect from the "Toronto Blessing".

4) The Chick Tract, I'm still trying to figure out which one it is. But I definitely laughed the first time, because both Missy and I and another friend we were watching with all basically exclaimed in unison "IS THAT A CHICK TRACT?"


Five Asides:
1) The weird music during the tongues scene wasn't the people who directed [u]Jesus Camp[/u]. That was the people in the room making the weird moaning music, they show the woman moaning into the microphone at one point and it completely gave me the shivers that that could come from a human mouth.

2) Emotional appeals are at the center of a lot of conversion attempts. The documentary [u]Hell House[/u] is a great example of this. I'd love a sequel of this film, just to see if the children still have their faith as teens.

3) Pastor Becky endorsed this film as a wonderful evangelism tool. The only person involved who denounced it was Ted Haggard...pre-scandal. They even remark on that with the Director commentary.

4) The Camp at Devil's Lake (what a name for a Christian camp) has since been closed due to vandalism and fear for the children's safety.