Boyfriend/girlfriend

[Paddington]

I threw this question in the middle of the explicit thread about NFP. Maybe it can get a few answers with its own thread.

Peace,
Paddington



Can a man and woman be really close and hug and kiss and not plan on getting married since they don't have the money? Maybe in the distant future, but maybe not?

Should the man step away and hope that another man with more money comes along for her to marry and have kids with?
Even if they are both very happy doing what they are doing? And they submit to the pope and encourage each other to submit to the pope?

[KnightofChrist]

Doesnt the Church forbid Passionate kissing? I know one of the Popes said as much, but can not recall which one...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1464461' date='Feb 16 2008, 07:41 PM']I threw this question in the middle of the explicit thread about NFP. Maybe it can get a few answers with its own thread.

Peace,
Paddington
Can a man and woman be really close and hug and kiss and not plan on getting married since they don't have the money? Maybe in the distant future, but maybe not?

Should the man step away and hope that another man with more money comes along for her to marry and have kids with?
Even if they are both very happy doing what they are doing? And they submit to the pope and encourage each other to submit to the pope?[/quote]
Yes I think you can, as long as the hugging and kissing stay on "first base".

[CatherineM]

You don't have to have money to get married. My parent's were poor but we never lacked for things that we actually needed. My husband and I are poor, but we are also very happy, and also do not lack for any necessities. If you love each other, you will find a way to afford the things any children you have need.

[Justin86]

Such a situation, if it really exists anywhere, certainly would not exist in the United States.

[XIX]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1464464' date='Feb 16 2008, 07:54 PM']Yes I think you can, as long as the hugging and kissing stay on "first base".[/quote]
Depends what you mean by "first base." But I think there's another thread on making out already, so if anybody wants to debate that you can always dig that one up.

[Deb]

No making out. No nothing. Nada. Zilch. Forget it. Hold hands and consider yourself lucky.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1464592' date='Feb 17 2008, 03:00 AM']Such a situation, if it really exists anywhere, certainly would not exist in the United States.[/quote]

?

[XIX]

[quote name='Deb' post='1467028' date='Feb 21 2008, 11:42 PM']No making out. No nothing. Nada. Zilch. Forget it. Hold hands and consider yourself lucky.[/quote]
There's always short chaste kisses, cuddling, hugs, back massages, falling asleep on each other while cuddling, pressing your cheeks against each other while you hug, poking, slow dancing, peering into each others eyes, playing with each others' hair...just to name a few

And those are just forms of physical affection. Don't get me started on flowers, love letters, ice skating, and stuff like that.

Edited February 22, 2008 by XIX

[Paddington]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467365' date='Feb 22 2008, 07:51 PM']There's always short chaste kisses, cuddling, hugs, back massages, falling asleep on each other while cuddling, pressing your cheeks against each other while you hug, poking, slow dancing, peering into each others eyes, playing with each others' hair...just to name a few [/quote]

That's hot.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1467366' date='Feb 22 2008, 02:22 PM']That's hot.[/quote]




money should never be a determining issue.

anything that arouses should not be done.

either get married, or stop having a romance with no future.

[Justin86]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1467191' date='Feb 23 2008, 02:23 AM']?[/quote]
A good question. I think I was responding to another topic.......

[Deb]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467365' date='Feb 22 2008, 04:21 PM']There's always short chaste kisses, cuddling, hugs, back massages, falling asleep on each other while cuddling, pressing your cheeks against each other while you hug, poking, slow dancing, peering into each others eyes, playing with each others' hair...just to name a few

And those are just forms of physical affection. Don't get me started on flowers, love letters, ice skating, and stuff like that.[/quote]


Yes, and how long before the above actions lead to something else?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467365' date='Feb 22 2008, 09:21 PM']There's always short chaste kisses, cuddling, hugs, back massages, falling asleep on each other while cuddling, pressing your cheeks against each other while you hug, poking, slow dancing, peering into each others eyes, playing with each others' hair...just to name a few

And those are just forms of physical affection. Don't get me started on flowers, love letters, ice skating, and stuff like that.[/quote]

How can you forget video games?! Hmm, I think I'll break out the PS2 for a bit. . .

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467365' date='Feb 22 2008, 04:21 PM']There's always short chaste kisses, cuddling, hugs, back massages, falling asleep on each other while cuddling, pressing your cheeks against each other while you hug, poking, slow dancing, peering into each others eyes, playing with each others' hair...just to name a few

And those are just forms of physical affection. Don't get me started on flowers, love letters, ice skating, and stuff like that.[/quote]
Wow. Never thought of those things...

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1467603' date='Feb 23 2008, 09:22 AM']How can you forget video games?! Hmm, I think I'll break out the PS2 for a bit. . .[/quote]
Of course! It would be nice to have a girlfriend who'd help me pwn on DOTA

You know, jamming is pretty sweet too

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1467670' date='Feb 23 2008, 05:41 PM']Of course! It would be nice to have a girlfriend who'd help me pwn on DOTA [/quote]
What can I say, my husband and I spent a lot of time playing Bushido Blade II during our dating, engagement, and yeah, now, too. Well, not just Bushido Blade, but that's where it started.

[quote]You know, jamming is pretty sweet too [/quote]

Yeah, my musical abilities consist of playing the spoons.

[XIX]

[quote name='Deb' post='1467600' date='Feb 23 2008, 09:53 AM']Yes, and how long before the above actions lead to something else?[/quote]
Sure, physical affection could bring up certain temptations. However, we are not statues. We are allowed to be affectionate. A prudish sense of "hands off at all times" doesn't really do much to foster the gift of chastity, since such an attitude causes one to believe that one's sexuality is bad. Courtship is a great time to cultivate a sense that affection can be a wonderful gift in and of itself. Affection can exist on its own without being a mere prerequisite for sex--even if it leads to sex in a marriage, simple affectionate acts ought to be appreciated for its own sake. Courtship/dating is a great time to cultivate that sense of appreciation.

Something like 70% of married women would rather be cuddled than have sex. Not that I would really know, but I would speculate that they feel this way not because they don't enjoy sex, but because they are very rarely cuddled. Because very few dating/courting couples avoid having sex anymore, most guys grew up thinking of a kiss as simply something they had to do to get laid. They never learn to appreciate simple affection for its own sake.

We guys are dense, we need to be taught a lot of things. A good way for us to learn is for women to demand respectful treatment. A woman who insists on being treated well is a woman that any guy should be grateful to have.

Yes, if one were to avoid all forms of physical contact in a relationship, it would probably reduce the probability of having sex. But I don't think it actually makes the virtue of chastity any stronger. Chastity isn't simply about repressing your sexual desire until you find a licit outlet for your passions. It's about realizing that God gave you your sexuality, that others are to be respected, that others are not to be used,

It's not about saying no to sex. It's about being unselfish and above all else it's about saying yes to God.

It's important to differentiate between a near occasion of sin and a theoretical occasion of sin. For example, a big hug might be a theoretical occasion of sin, because it *could* lead to something more. However, it might not be a near occasion of sin for people who know that a hug is most likely not going to become a serious temptation.

Conversely, laying down next to each other while wearing next to nothing would probably be a near occasion of sin. Each couple needs to discern for itself what kinds of boundaries it needs to erect to protect its purity. Some couples choose not to drink when they are together. Maybe some couples can't cuddle on the couch, because they know that if they do that they could easily end up going too far. A guy I know won't let his girlfriend whisper in his ear. It varies.

[Paddington]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467724' date='Feb 23 2008, 05:59 PM']Something like 70% of married women would rather be cuddled than have sex.[/quote]

They are absolutely right. [mod]--Era Might[/mod]

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467724' date='Feb 23 2008, 02:29 PM']Summary: prudishness = bad.[/quote]

Not to mention, when a couple is married, chastity becomes harder, not easier. Just because it is no longer sin to have sex doesn't mean that one can have sex as often as they want. Sexuality is a gift, yes, but one that must be tended to and cultivated with the utmost of respect for your partner's wishes and desires, as well as your own financial ability to raise children. Further, old age and disabilities can take their toll on a couple's marriage; my father has been paralyzed for 8 years now, and my parents have not been able to enjoy the marital embrace for just as long, nor will they ever again. For other couples, another pregnancy may spell uncertain complications which prudence demands that they abstain from sex during the wife's fertile periods in order to prevent serious health issues.

As XIX said, dating is a prime time to cultivate a sense of chastity that will remain useful even after marriage. Further, when situations like those mentioned above DO happen, having some sort of physical way to express intimacy is very helpful, not to mention very congruent with the Catholic sacramental mindset.

[Deb]

[quote name='XIX' post='1467724' date='Feb 23 2008, 02:29 PM']Sure, physical affection could bring up certain temptations. However, we are not statues. We are allowed to be affectionate. A prudish sense of "hands off at all times" doesn't really do much to foster the gift of chastity, since such an attitude causes one to believe that one's sexuality is bad. Courtship is a great time to cultivate a sense that affection can be a wonderful gift in and of itself. Affection can exist on its own without being a mere prerequisite for sex--even if it leads to sex in a marriage, simple affectionate acts ought to be appreciated for its own sake. Courtship/dating is a great time to cultivate that sense of appreciation.

Something like 70% of married women would rather be cuddled than have sex. Not that I would really know, but I would speculate that they feel this way not because they don't enjoy sex, but because they are very rarely cuddled. Because very few dating/courting couples avoid having sex anymore, most guys grew up thinking of a kiss as simply something they had to do to get laid. They never learn to appreciate simple affection for its own sake.

We guys are dense, we need to be taught a lot of things. A good way for us to learn is for women to demand respectful treatment. A woman who insists on being treated well is a woman that any guy should be grateful to have.

Yes, if one were to avoid all forms of physical contact in a relationship, it would probably reduce the probability of having sex. But I don't think it actually makes the virtue of chastity any stronger. Chastity isn't simply about repressing your sexual desire until you find a licit outlet for your passions. It's about realizing that God gave you your sexuality, that others are to be respected, that others are not to be used,

It's not about saying no to sex. It's about being unselfish and above all else it's about saying yes to God.

It's important to differentiate between a near occasion of sin and a theoretical occasion of sin. For example, a big hug might be a theoretical occasion of sin, because it *could* lead to something more. However, it might not be a near occasion of sin for people who know that a hug is most likely not going to become a serious temptation.

Conversely, laying down next to each other while wearing next to nothing would probably be a near occasion of sin. Each couple needs to discern for itself what kinds of boundaries it needs to erect to protect its purity. Some couples choose not to drink when they are together. Maybe some couples can't cuddle on the couch, because they know that if they do that they could easily end up going too far. A guy I know won't let his girlfriend whisper in his ear. It varies.[/quote]

You are right. I guess because I have been away from thinking of things in relationship to God for most of my life, I don't look at things from this point of view. When I think back to my youth (many many years ago) I do remember being a "Good Catholic Girl" for most of my teen years. Once ya fall though, you are a goner and the longer you are in a relationship, the further you tend to go and it does become a matter of nature taking over.
Everything you wrote was very beautiful and I will quit whining because I am celibate.