California Bans Homeschooling

[Mitchell_b55]

I understand your usage, but only interpreted within the context of the entire thread. I also believe that you have expressed yourself clearly. I might contradict you in one respect, that I do not think that what we need is 'well-roundedness'. It is better to be pointed and sharp than well-rounded and dull. A well rounded blade does not penetrate very deeply or with any great ease. To be well-rounded is to mediocre in many things, but good at nothing. Before the collapse of Catholic education this was the case, the following are examples of those who are the products of this long forgotten parochial school environment. I am acquainted with all of those mentioned, except the last, for obvious reasons. He was dead almost twenty years before I was born.

Mrs. Cherie Armao Gabreski, a woman who was a fellow parishioner at my first parish and who taught French, was given general classes in grammar school and by the time she was in high school had already been in a formative atmosphere for a life as a linguist. Early on she had excelled in Latin and so she had only very little instruction in the other arts, mathematics, science, &c. but focussed at this young age solely on language, specifically Latin and French. This was, of course, in 1950s Philadelphia at the enormous institutions that it possessed. She is perhaps the most brilliant non-native French speaker that I know, short of Mr. Todd Cain, also the product of his environment, brilliant teacher of French and Latin as well as a great theological knowledge having studied in a theological seminary in France. He is a fellow parishioner currently, and acquaintance. Mr. Bernard Picklo, same environment, most astute science major I have ever met, both in astronomy and geology. The greatest example, might by Mr. Richard Sherry, who is fluent (mark me, fluent) in Classical Latin, Classical Greek, Koine Greek, Ancient Hebrew, French, and Finnish. Not to mention he is a microbiologist. His major in high school was the sciences and mathematics, with Latin being the language of choice in those fields. His linguistic ability is an off-shoot of his original growth in Latin. Fr. Johannes Grun is also a linguist and was marked early on as a student of philosophy and theology. J.R.R. Tolkien might be a good popular example.

All of these people have something in common, they were not well-rounded, they were pointed and are probably some of the finest examples of professionals who know what they are doing. What we need is not well-rounded homeschooling which, like Jefferson, requires an incredible polymathic aptitude on the part of the student, to pass the standardised state exams. What we need is a Catholic parochial school which nurtures specific talents early on, so that students are not still deciding their college major four semesters in.

That is my opinion, your rebuttal is kindly awaited. God's peace.

Edited March 7, 2008 by petrus_scholasticus

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote]The drop out rate for Homeschool is non existent.[/quote]

prove it

[Scofizzle]

The gorvenrment should stay out of educatio all together. Let an open market fix the school system. Give the people their moeny back and let them spend it on their child's education.

[rkwright]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1473747' date='Mar 7 2008, 05:40 PM']I understand your usage, but only interpreted within the context of the entire thread. I also believe that you have expressed yourself clearly. I might contradict you in one respect, that I do not think that what we need is 'well-roundedness'. It is better to be pointed and sharp than well-rounded and dull. A well rounded blade does not penetrate very deeply or with any great ease. To be well-rounded is to mediocre in many things, but good at nothing. Before the collapse of Catholic education this was the case, the following are examples of those who are the products of this long forgotten parochial school environment. I am acquainted with all of those mentioned, except the last, for obvious reasons. He was dead almost twenty years before I was born.

Mrs. Cherie Armao Gabreski, a woman who was a fellow parishioner at my first parish and who taught French, was given general classes in grammar school and by the time she was in high school had already been in a formative atmosphere for a life as a linguist. Early on she had excelled in Latin and so she had only very little instruction in the other arts, mathematics, science, &c. but focussed at this young age solely on language, specifically Latin and French. This was, of course, in 1950s Philadelphia at the enormous institutions that it possessed. She is perhaps the most brilliant non-native French speaker that I know, short of Mr. Todd Cain, also the product of his environment, brilliant teacher of French and Latin as well as a great theological knowledge having studied in a theological seminary in France. He is a fellow parishioner currently, and acquaintance. Mr. Bernard Picklo, same environment, most astute science major I have ever met, both in astronomy and geology. The greatest example, might by Mr. Richard Sherry, who is fluent (mark me, fluent) in Classical Latin, Classical Greek, Koine Greek, Ancient Hebrew, French, and Finnish. Not to mention he is a microbiologist. His major in high school was the sciences and mathematics, with Latin being the language of choice in those fields. His linguistic ability is an off-shoot of his original growth in Latin. Fr. Johannes Grun is also a linguist and was marked early on as a student of philosophy and theology. J.R.R. Tolkien might be a good popular example.

All of these people have something in common, they were not well-rounded, they were pointed and are probably some of the finest examples of professionals who know what they are doing. What we need is not well-rounded homeschooling which, like Jefferson, requires an incredible polymathic aptitude on the part of the student, to pass the standardised state exams. What we need is a Catholic parochial school which nurtures specific talents early on, so that students are not still deciding their college major four semesters in.

That is my opinion, your rebuttal is kindly awaited. God's peace.[/quote]

This was a bit strange... no offense to your local teachers, but there are 'bigger and better' teachers out there; and they usually don't teach at the high school level. I used to think my high school teachers were some of the smartest people out there, then I got to college, and even then I read some of the works of others. There is a reason why some of our greatest minds are at universities.

Regardless, your point can still stand without any of the examples given. But I have to disagree with your conclusion. We don't need to be teaching specialties in the high school level. People in high school are much too young to know what they really want to do in their lives.

There is nothing wrong with switching majors; there is nothing wrong with going into college as a gen. ed major. You have to be exposed to a wide variety of courses before you can make an intelligent decision.

[Mitchell_b55]

Mr. Richard Sherry teaches at the university level, and they are not necessarily my teachers. Both Todd Cain and Mrs. Gabreski have doctorates. Fr. Grun is, of course, a priest. Mr. Picklo is the only teacher mentioned. I could also mention Marvin Thomas, professor of European History, and at least a dozen others that I am either acquainted with or am close friends with. All of these university professors. I have a tendency of gravitating towards Catholic intellectuals and so far they have enjoyed my company. Doctor Darrel Sheraw is another that comes to mind, British literature. Todd Lavin, modern philosophy, is another.

I could also name dozens of teachers who were buffoons by anyone's standards. My experience of professors, teachers, and educators is not so limited as some would at first believe from my age. I have spent my entire life seeking out such people and becoming friends with them. I had the advantage of being successful in this respect.

[quote]People in high school are much too young to know what they really want to do in their lives.[/quote]

[quote]You have to be exposed to a wide variety of courses before you can make an intelligent decision.[/quote]

This is standard material. Every teacher and university says it. It doesn't make it true and hundreds of examples to the contrary can contradict it. It has something to do with this false perception among many people of adolescence.

Edited March 8, 2008 by petrus_scholasticus

[rkwright]

[quote name='petrus_scholasticus' post='1473810' date='Mar 7 2008, 07:36 PM']Mr. Richard Sherry teaches at the university level, and they are not necessarily my teachers. Both Todd Cain and Mrs. Gabreski have doctorates. Fr. Grun is, of course, a priest. Mr. Picklo is the only teacher mentioned. I could also mention Marvin Thomas, professor of European History, and at least a dozen others that I am either acquainted with or am close friends with. All of these university professors. I have a tendency of gravitating towards Catholic intellectuals and so far they have enjoyed my company. Doctor Darrel Sheraw is another that comes to mind, British literature. Todd Lavin, modern philosophy, is another.

I could also name dozens of teachers who were buffoons by anyone's standards. My experience of professors, teachers, and educators is not so limited as some would at first believe from my age. I have spent my entire life seeking out such people and becoming friends with them. I had the advantage of being successful in this respect.[/quote]
Good for you. But there are more people out there. I have never heard of any of these people; after some searching I discovered I have never heard of Clarion university either. But I'm glad you know these people; maybe they will share some life lessons with you.
[quote]This is standard material. Every teacher and university says it. It doesn't make it true and hundreds of examples to the contrary can contradict it. It has something to do with this false perception among many people of adolescence.[/quote]

Maybe because its true. Life changes things. I too thought I knew what I wanted to do at 17-18; only to be proved wrong.

We're not China, we don't need to be specializing kids starting at 16. Go to college, take some classes, find what your really passionate about (and can make a living on...).

[goldbug16]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1473498' date='Mar 7 2008, 12:10 PM'][url="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL"]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...7/MNJDVF0F1.DTL[/url][/quote]

Absolutely vile....

[apparent]

[url="http://nche.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/04.asp"]http://nche.hslda.org/docs/study/ray1997/04.asp[/url]

Many parochial schools have lost their Catholic distinctiveness. Many different pressures affect parochial school systems as they try to serve an increasingly diverse population, but the net result is that traditional Catholics sometimes feel the parochial schools are becoming more and more like the secular public schools. This is particularly true in the sensitive area of sex education. Home education provides Catholic families a way to guarantee a distinctively Catholic education.

The Catholic teachings that most offend secular America (regarding abortion, contraception, divorce) are enthusiastically practiced by many Protestant home schoolers. Protestant home schoolers are some of the most committed pro-life activists, and can often be found side-by-side with Catholic pro-lifers at crisis pregnancy centers or anti-abortion rallies. Instead of seeing home schoolers as an especially threatening kind of Protestant extremist, the more observant Catholics increasingly view them as kindred spirits.

Home schooling works. Direct parental involvement and hard work are the keys to educational success. Regardless of race, gender, socioeconomic status, parent education level, teacher certification, or the degree of government regulation, the academic achievement scores of home educated students significantly exceed those of public school students. Home school students are fully engaged in society and experience a wide range of opportunities outside the home. They are smart users of both technology and their time. And graduates are equipped to pursue their aspirations — work or college. Contrary to the often speculative opinions of critics, the facts demonstrate success.

Edited March 8, 2008 by apparent

[Autumn Dusk]

Your evidence, the HSLDA link, is not only anecdotal but also from a very bias source. Of course the home schooler legislation is going to say that home school is good. The abortionists say abortion is good. By definition "homeschooling" sounds good but statistics of privately tutored, those using full curriculum's, and in co-ops are also counted. A parent is not singularly responsible for this behavior in students. In fact, this success is indicative of involved parents or a child involved in religious activities, not necessarily homeschooling as its indicated. Its very misleading.

The very fact that the people who are defending their rights are under suspicion for child abuse needs to be taken into consideration. Without pointing the faults of public school the inherent danger of keeping a child at home and teaching them. That a child could be isolated and harmed is a real concern to those trying to protect children. Remember, while we see this as a fight to preserve the right to teach Christianity, others are free to teach days of natzism.

And the notion that just becuase two people can biologically reproduce doesn't give them rights to do what they want with the child. There are plenty of cases in that.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Autumn Dusk

[Paddington]

I hope that I can homeschool someday if I am blessed in that way.

Maybe not in high school tho, but that comes more from me wanting them to see the world and learning to obey than getting taught by "experts." I respect their learning, but I went to a Catholic high school that was well-rated academically and I don't see how they are really that smart. The student is more important than the teacher. And the student can go farther in less time without a bunch of classmates.

[Mitchell_b55]

I spoke of a revitalisation of Catholic schools. Yes, my "examples" were anecdotal, but they were meant to generalise on those who had attended Catholic school "before" the collapse of Catholic education. I was offering some considerations not an exhaustive treatise on education. And I know and admit it was a generalisation, but not on too frail a basis I hope.

I agree entirely with the statement that Catholic schools are no better that secular schools, at present. Except that if they are free of government grants they do not have to follow state curriculum. All said and done, I think that we should be working on the long-term goal of breathing new life into our parochial schools.

rkwright, I do not think that it is true, but my reasoning is complex and is based on psychology and philosophy. I haven't time to expound my belief in full. I am planning an article on it for my blog in the future. Until, that time we cordially disagree.

Edited March 8, 2008 by petrus_scholasticus

[St. Michael]

[quote name='goldbug16' post='1473821' date='Mar 7 2008, 08:16 PM']Absolutely vile.... [/quote]
So you're saying that you support allegedly abusive parents being able to provide a quasi-education to their children?

[rkwright]

[quote name='St. Michael' post='1473860' date='Mar 7 2008, 10:06 PM']So you're saying that you support allegedly abusive parents being able to provide a quasi-education to their children?[/quote]
No one has said that.

People have advocated the right for parents to choose where their kids get their education from.

[St. Michael]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1473868' date='Mar 7 2008, 10:24 PM']No one has said that.

People have advocated the right for parents to choose where their kids get their education from.[/quote]
I support that as well -- as long as parents are not making horrible choices with regard to where their kids get education. Which is what this case is actually about.

These parents are making horrible choices. I would argue that both sides are making too much of this decision. A good lawyer should be able to differentiate the facts of this case from homeschooling parents who are actually doing a good job. Which these parents are clearly not doing. Not everyone should be homeschooling.

And this is still an appeals-level decision (hopefully it stays that way and no idiotic advocate pushes it farther).

Edited March 8, 2008 by St. Michael

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1473868' date='Mar 7 2008, 11:24 PM']No one has said that.

People have advocated the right for parents to choose where their kids get their education from.[/quote]

It can't be ignored that this main defendant in this case. If there are so many educated home schoolers who MUST be great contributers to society by now by all the hear-say thats floating around they should be defending their education. The best they can muster is someone with multiple accusations of abuse? The Home schoolers aren't making it easy to be liked or sided with.

The issue of the parent's right to choose education is a pivotal one in the country, but putting this parent as the star really works against the case for ANY parental right to choose education, none-the-less the fundamental right for a parent to educate a young child, and to choose for their teen who they are to be educated by.

[SJP]

If I lived in California and this decision were to stand, I would flee from that state as if I were running from a tsunami. This is beyond disturbing.

[rkwright]

[quote name='St. Michael' post='1473874' date='Mar 7 2008, 10:34 PM']I support that as well -- as long as parents are not making horrible choices with regard to where their kids get education. Which is what this case is actually about.

These parents are making horrible choices. I would argue that both sides are making too much of this decision. A good lawyer should be able to differentiate the facts of this case from homeschooling parents who are actually doing a good job. Which these parents are clearly not doing. Not everyone should be homeschooling.

And this is still an appeals-level decision (hopefully it stays that way and no idiotic advocate pushes it farther).[/quote]

No this case is not about horrible choices. The statue is clear in CA. It says you must be taught by a certified teacher.

Freedom of choice does not mean you're free as long as you don't make horrible choices. It means you're free to choose whatever you want, regardless of how stupid it is. *Disclaimer, I'm not talking about criminal actions here.

It does need to pushed further; this decision is now binding on all courts in CA (I assume this was in the state courts?) , but the problem isn't the decision its the statue. The lawyer is not able to distinguish between a good homeschooling parent and a bad one. The statute doesn't say 'you can home school as long as you're good at it...'No matter how good the lawyer is, the court is bound to apply the statue or overturn it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1473877' date='Mar 7 2008, 10:37 PM']It can't be ignored that this main defendant in this case. If there are so many educated home schoolers who MUST be great contributers to society by now by all the hear-say thats floating around they should be defending their education. The best they can muster is someone with multiple accusations of abuse? The Home schoolers aren't making it easy to be liked or sided with.

The issue of the parent's right to choose education is a pivotal one in the country, but putting this parent as the star really works against the case for ANY parental right to choose education, none-the-less the fundamental right for a parent to educate a young child, and to choose for their teen who they are to be educated by.[/quote]

Justice is blind. A jury might agree with you, but a judge would never say 'an alleged abuser can't homeschool but everyone else can'.

[jeffpugh]

yeah... so will this thread then go to the debate table or lame board? place your bets now. odds are 3:1.

[rkwright]

Homeschooling is a hot topic. Where is HSMom for this one??