Who Is Likely To Receive More Graces.....

[picchick]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1475436' date='Mar 10 2008, 11:08 PM']It would be far more productive to explain charitably to those non-mass-goers the need to attend Sunday mass, than to speculate about who has more graces.[/quote]


Exactly. Don't judge. That is all I am saying. Educate, guide and let God deal with the rest.

[mortify]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475423' date='Mar 10 2008, 09:56 PM']I understand what you are saying but I still will have to disagree with you. We first off do not know why the person is missing Mass. We don't know if they even were taught that missing Mass was a sin. Maybe this was not reinforced for them.[/quote]

My response is based off the statement that they "believe everything the Church teaches."

[quote]I agree that if you die in the state of mortal sin then you will go to hell. But how can one person say to another, "You are in a state of mortal sin."? Isn't it better to say, "Hey, man, do you know that it is a mortal sin to miss Mass? You need to go every Sunday." Then if her were to reply, "Why, yes, I know that I should go every Sunday but I do not feel it is necessary," we could say that she is committing a mortal sin knowingly. Plus, how do we know if a person dies without repenting? We don't. We do not know what is going on in the heart, mind and soul of the dying person unless they vocally say something.[/quote]

You're right, we don't know whether someone dies repentant since this is a matter between the individual and God, and so we can't judge.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]I just want to defend some of the sleepers out there in the congregation. I know that you would never fall asleep at a party because it would be considered rude. However, sometimes I am so beat because I work two 12 hour shifts and am only able to get to the 8 pm Mass that I do fall asleep. There are times when I will work an 8 and a 12 hr shift and still find myself nodding off. I try not to but it happens. Now I would never go to a party after doing this because I know I won't survive. However, I need to and want to go to Mass. There is no choice for me in the matter. So, I do the best I can.

Again, only God can know what is going on in a person's soul.

Meg[/quote]

Picchick,

I have known priests who have reprimanded those who come in late, leave early or fall asleep during mass and I have known priests who have said that we don't know the circumstances as to why they are late, fall asleep or have to leave early and he excuses them. My point was that we all know that there are folks at church who are there, who would rather be somewhere else or are there not of their free-will. My mother used to force my father to go to mass with her.




QUOTE("Kyrie eleison @ Mar 10 2008, 10:18 AM) *
A person who goes to mass every Sunday and rarely misses because it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, they are generally a good person, but are more lukewarm in their walk with Jesus.
or

A person who fully believes in the Church and it's teachings, tries their best to show the love of Jesus to each and everyone that they encounter,feels the fire of love of Jesus everyday in their lives but only goes to mass 3 or 4 times out of the year.


[quote]The first person is better off because the second person is in a state of mortal sin, which cuts you off from Sanctifying Grace.[/quote]

Mortify,

So, are you stating that the second person is cut off from all sanctifying grace? That any good works that this second person performs cannot in some way redeem?

[prose]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1475175' date='Mar 10 2008, 06:42 PM']I remember when I was a kid and even in my teens I went to mass because I was forced to. I never really listened and just went through the motions. I see people who are at mass now who are half asleep and some even sleeping and are awaken by their own snore. I wonder what type of graces these folks receive.[/quote]

All the graces that God feels they need in that moment.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Deb' post='1475039' date='Mar 10 2008, 03:42 PM']Grace is received every time you receive a sacrament so the person who goes every week will receive God's grace.
A person who only goes now and then but, is a very good person, is also lukewarm or they would be going to church. Not going to church is a sin ya know.[/quote]

Do we receive any graces by being charitable, doing good works and giving alms or are we shut out because we do not receive the sacraments?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1474924' date='Mar 10 2008, 12:18 PM']A person who goes to mass every Sunday and rarely misses because it is a mortal sin to miss mass without a good excuse, they are generally a good person, but are more lukewarm in their walk with Jesus.
or

A person who fully believes in the Church and it's teachings, tries their best to show the love of Jesus to each and everyone that they encounter,feels the fire of love of Jesus everyday in their lives [b]but[/b] only goes to mass 3 or 4 times out of the year.[/quote]

Because I think this whole thread is pretty pointless, I'm gonna say they're both going to Hell.

I mean, seriously, don't we have anything better to talk about?

[mortify]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1475685' date='Mar 11 2008, 10:56 AM']Mortify,

So, are you stating that the second person is cut off from all sanctifying grace? That any good works that this second person performs cannot in some way redeem?[/quote]

Yes, that's correct.

[Deb]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison"' date='Mar 11 2008, 03:14 PM' post='1475778']
Do we receive any graces by being charitable, doing good works and giving alms or are we shut out because we do not receive the sacraments?

[/quote

I don't know. God's grace is first of all the gift of the Holy Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. Grace is a part of conversion. Grace also includes the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Grace cannot be known except by faith. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we cannot rely on our works or our feelings to conclude that we are justified or saved.

Grace is given to spur you on to a closer relationship with God. Doing charitable things and good works etc is great but, does it bring you closer to God. The more often you receive the sacraments, the more grace you receive and the more you are transformed to the likeness of our Christ Jesus. The more you are like our Lord, the more good works you will naturally do. It is all a work of conversion. The Eucharist was really the last words of Jesus Christ when he knew he the time of his death was near. He meant for us to receive it and he meant every day.

[Jaime]

[quote name='mortify' post='1475346' date='Mar 10 2008, 10:08 PM']The first person is better off because the second person is in a state of mortal sin, which cuts you off from Sanctifying Grace.[/quote]

that is far too simplistic an understanding of mortal sin to be correct

[mortify]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1475848' date='Mar 11 2008, 05:41 PM']that is far too simplistic an understanding of mortal sin to be correct[/quote]

[quote][color="#0000FF"][b]Q. 280. What is mortal sin?[/b]

A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.

[b]Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?[/b]

A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.[/color][/quote]

[url="http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html"]http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html[/url]

Edited March 12, 2008 by mortify

[picchick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1475796' date='Mar 11 2008, 04:05 PM']Because I think this whole thread is pretty pointless, I'm gonna say they're both going to Hell.

I mean, seriously, don't we have anything better to talk about?[/quote]

Do we? If we do, then why did you respond?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1475880' date='Mar 11 2008, 09:05 PM']Q. 280. What is mortal sin?

A. Mortal sin is a grievous offense against the law of God.

Q. 281. Why is this sin called mortal?

A. This sin is called mortal because it deprives us of spiritual life, which is sanctifying grace, and brings everlasting death and damnation on the soul.

[url="http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html"]http://www.heartlandcatholic.org/BC3/bc3-06.html[/url][/quote]

However...

[quote]Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[/quote]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1859.htm[/url]

In my initial (and unanswered) response to this question, I asked about the circumstances causing the second guy to skip Mass. Without knowing at least that much, we have no business speculating on this question. Our newer Catechism spells things out much better than the Baltimore, which I've never liked much because it leads too many Catholics into scrupulosity and practicing works-based salvation (i.e. doing things out of obligation rather than love for God). The newer Catechism is basically spelling out how God judges by searching our hearts, and since we have no clue about either person's heart, we don't know which one is receiving more graces.

Edited March 12, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475892' date='Mar 11 2008, 09:34 PM']Do we? If we do, then why did you respond? [/quote]

Because there is so much more to Catholicism to speculating on who's getting some graces, as if we can even measure that kind of thing.

[picchick]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1475993' date='Mar 11 2008, 11:27 PM']Because there is so much more to Catholicism to speculating on who's getting some graces, as if we can even measure that kind of thing.[/quote]

Right...so don't judge. I mean not you but the world in general. It is between that person and God, Who can read that person's heart. I guess I am a handful for myself. I can't worry about where anyone else's heart is.

Meg

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]In my initial (and unanswered) response to this question, I asked about the circumstances causing the second guy to skip Mass. Without knowing at least that much, we have no business speculating on this question.[/quote]

Let's say that the second guy misses mass because of laziness.




[quote]Our newer Catechism spells things out much better than the Baltimore, which I've never liked much because it leads too many Catholics into scrupulosity and practicing works-based salvation (i.e. doing things out of obligation rather than love for God). The newer Catechism is basically spelling out how God judges by searching our hearts, and since we have no clue about either person's heart, we don't know which one is receiving more graces.[/quote]

Well, let's throw this scripture verse in the mix.


<< 1 Peter 4:8 >>

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love [b]covers[/b] a multitude of sins.

Edited March 12, 2008 by "Kyrie eleison"

[picchick]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476018' date='Mar 11 2008, 11:59 PM']Let's say that the second guy misses mass because of laziness.
Well, let's throw this scripture verse in the mix.
<< 1 Peter 4:8 >>

Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love [b]covers[/b] a multitude of sins.[/quote]

I have a question for you. Why are you worried about this? Are you just curious?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='picchick' post='1476030' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:27 AM']I have a question for you. Why are you worried about this? Are you just curious?[/quote]

I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.

[picchick]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1476035' date='Mar 12 2008, 12:47 AM']I am the second person that I speak of in my post. I do love Jesus and I do feel the fire of his love. When I do make to mass I cry because I feel his presence so intensely. I cry when I sing during mass, I constantly have to wipe my tears away.

I don't go to confession often so I don't receive communion when I do go to mass.

I volunteer at the church not out of oblagation but because I want to.

I miss church often because I work on Sunday but it is not an excuse because I can go on Saturday or early Sunday morning.[/quote]

I see now. Ok.

May I ask what keeps you from going to confession? Is it that you can't get there or is it because you don't see the need?

Well, after this thread you know that it is a sin to miss Mass. But if you love the presence of Jesus in the Mass then will want to go to it often or at least every week. I know that it is hard sometimes to get to Mass on a Sunday. I have to sometimes search the local towns for a Church with a very late or very early Mass because of the work schedule I have. However, there always seems to be a Mass somewhere. So now that you know it is a sin to miss Mass I would run to confess it. I am not saying this out of judgement. Just out of guidance. And if you feel Jesus's presence in Mass don't you want to recieve him into your very soul? By going to confession you can recieve Him. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I will be praying for you

Meg

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='picchick' post='1476042' date='Mar 12 2008, 01:10 AM']I see now. Ok.

May I ask what keeps you from going to confession? Is it that you can't get there or is it because you don't see the need?

Well, after this thread you know that it is a sin to miss Mass. But if you love the presence of Jesus in the Mass then will want to go to it often or at least every week. I know that it is hard sometimes to get to Mass on a Sunday. I have to sometimes search the local towns for a Church with a very late or very early Mass because of the work schedule I have. However, there always seems to be a Mass somewhere. So now that you know it is a sin to miss Mass I would run to confess it. I am not saying this out of judgement. Just out of guidance. And if you feel Jesus's presence in Mass don't you want to recieve him into your very soul? By going to confession you can recieve Him. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I will be praying for you

Meg[/quote]

Thanks Meg. Thank you so much for your prayers and your heartfelt responses here on this thread.

[KnightofChrist]

What is in someone's heart does not need to effect the grace given when one goes to mass, or graces not given when one does not go to mass. Knowledge of the sin of missing mass does not need to effect the grace given when one goes to mass, or graces not given when one does not go to mass.

When we go to mass we obtain a certain grace, if we do not go to mass we do not obtain that grace. Simply because we do not go to mass, the only place in which that grace can be obtain.

When we receive the Blessed Sacrament at mass, we also obtain a certain grace, when we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament we do not obtain that grace. Again simply because we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament, the only action which that grace can be obtain.

When we do not receive these graces it can leave us open to harm from the devil, and/or weaker against temptation, among other harmful things.

To be clear it is a fact which can not factually be denied, going to mass, and receiving the Blessed Sacrament we obtain graces we do not obtain when we do not go to mass and when we do not receive the Blessed Sacrament.

Edited March 12, 2008 by KnightofChrist