Need Your Help And Prayers Again!

[the lords sheep]

Wow! Welcome Sister! Please pray for us all and be assured of our prayers!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='SRLAUREL' post='1493328' date='Apr 5 2008, 09:02 PM'][[Anyway, now I am back in California while I attempt to research my "hermit options". I have considered finding a small place to live with a simple part-time job to support myself, and then seek out a Bishop who will allow me to consecrate myself to him as a hermit (there is a woman in Oakland CA who is a consecrated hermit). The other thing I have considered is the Hermits of Bethlehem or their neighbors, The Hermits of Our Lady of Mt Carmel (O Carm affiliation). But right now I am in heavy duty prayer mode while I see where the Holy Spirit is leading me. ]]

I am the Sister you referred to in the Diocese of Oakland. Personally I doubt very much the diocese will welcome someone who comes to the diocese looking for someone who will profess/consecrate them. This is so not only because the diocese looks for someone living an eremitical life already before admitting to temporary profession, but also because the unique charism of the diocesan hermit demands an established relation to parish and diocese. In any case my own trip to perpetual profession in Oakland took 23 years, and I lived the life all those years.

One other thing to be clear about. One does not consecrate oneself to the Bishop. One professes one's vows to God in the hands of the diocesan Bishop and the CHURCH CONSECRATES one as a canonical/diocesan hermit. One gives oneself to God, yes, but the call and admission to the consecrated state is only done or mediated by the Church. The actual prayer of consecration prayed by the Bishop is part of the rite of perpetual profession, but not that of temporary profession. Thus, consecration has two senses, 1) the giving of oneself (which can be done in private4 vows but which does not raise one to the consecrated state) and the actual consecration of the indivdual by the Church.

Also, most Bishops are rather cautious about hermits who must earn their living outside the hermitage, and some will not admit these hermits to canon 603 profession at all. (There are any number of individuals waiting until they retire, etc to be admitted to canon 603 profession, not all in the same diocese of course). Meanwhile, I believe the Diocese of San Jose and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles also have diocesan hermits, as may the Diocese of Sacramento, and since housing costs can be lower in those areas you might consider them. Wherever you go, be sue and get yourself established in your parish (you will need your Pastor's recommendation for admission to profession), and be prepared to live the life for[u] at least [/u]three to five years before being seriously considered for even temporary vows. You will need a spiritual director as well, of course.

If you wish to contact me, I hope you will feel free. My email address is SRLAUREL@aol.com. Meanwhile, all my best in your discernment process.

SIncerely,
Sister Laurel M O'Neal
Stillsong Hermitage
Diocese of Oakland

"My power is made perfect in weakness." 2Cor 12:9[/quote]


Thank you for all this very valuable information. These things are not well known even by priests, so it is certainly very helpful for anyone considering the hermit life to hear about it from someone who knows.

[Guest Janua Coeli]

[i]I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.[/i]

O Mary, we trust Thee!

“At Carmel and at the Judgment, I am alone with God”. A few thoughts on what the hermit aspect of Discalced Carmelite life means to me.
In Carmel, we live as “hermits in community”, individually and collectively loving God and giving ourselves to Him Who is our All. The eremitical side of our life is fostered by solitude and silence, aided on a practical level by the observance of Teresian enclosure and a determined withdrawal from the world, including the limiting of personal contacts with people outside. Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working. There is no common workroom, although at times they may need to work together on tasks that require collaboration. This solitude, even though it may not be perfect, is a great help for maintaining the silence and for prayer. Furthermore, sisters may only speak when required to do so by necessity or by reason of their duties, unless they have special permission to talk in response to some practical need.
According to the Rule and Constitutions handed down from St. Teresa, there is a certain number of community acts performed during the day. The community together pray the Divine Office, participate in the celebration of the Eucharist, spend their two hours of silent prayer/meditation (normally in choir), share their meals and hold recreation in common. These common acts do not, however, take anything away from the eremitical aspect of the life or prevent one from preserving an interior solitude and silence. As St. John of the Cross exhorts, one is to “live as though he were alone in the monastery”. (One explicit way of putting this into practice is striving deliberately not to notice what others are doing, or whether they are present at community activities, or what they are eating in the refectory, etc.) In fact, the cenobitical side of Carmel provides structure, stability and support for living a deep interior life, as well as offering opportunities to practise mortification, renunciation of one’s self-will, charity, patience, generosity and all the other virtues. Practising obedience in even little things is also a safeguard for knowing that one is doing the Will of God and keeping a proper balance in, for example, one’s penitential practices.
Being a hermit is not just about being physically alone (though normally that helps!). It is more an interior “living apart”, continually in God’s presence, and demands a detachment from everything that is not Him. At times one can feel an intense loneliness and isolation, even when surrounded by others, and it is only human to occasionally feel the need for affection, support and encouragement. In Carmel, not only are we not able to phone or e-mail a friend to chat to when things are difficult or we would like to express our feelings about something, we do not generally talk about personal stuff with our sisters either. And this can be very hard, especially when one is going through a particularly rough patch. (Some exception, of course, is made during formation, when one usually has more opportunities for sharing things with one’s novice mistress or some other sister. And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need. Nevertheless, in practice it is frequently the case that when one really feels the need to talk, it is either not an appropriate time or the sister you have permission to talk to is otherwise engaged; and so one somehow just has to cope on one’s own, with the grace of God.)
Ordinarily, in due course, there is a gradual stripping away of all external supports and one is left truly “alone with God alone”. It is a valuable time for growing in self-knowledge but often distressing. There is no one to turn to, nowhere to go or to hide, no outlet for expressing one’s inner pain, fear and confusion, only Him. As we read in the psalms: “O where can I go from your spirit, or where can I flee from your face? If I climb the heavens, you are there. If I lie in the grave, you are there.” (Ps 138:7-8) In this dreadful solitude one is thrown back on God as one’s only security and support. And even He may seem to have abandoned or rejected you, so that you are left in darkness, emptiness and desolation, with apparently nothing to hold on to. At times like these it can often be a great consolation to have others sitting/kneeling near you in choir praying. One learns to value the hidden, prayerful support and example of other community members who are persevering in the same life, going through similar struggles and experiencing similar joys and sorrows. One also finds oneself turning even more to the saints and angels for help, especially Our Blessed Lady. She is a beautiful example of a hermit soul as she “treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart” while at the same time being fully committed to the needs of her family and her daily household duties.
In conclusion, may I just say how grateful I am for the tremendous privilege of being given a Carmelite vocation, however imperfectly I actually live it. I know that others may be drawn to an even more solitary life but, for me, Carmel is the place where I can be very deeply a hermit even while being part of a busy sisterly community. And should the path to union with God seem, at times, fraught with difficulties and desolation, deep down, below the level of feelings, there is a real joy and that true and enduring peace promised by Jesus, a peace that the world cannot give.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Janua Coeli

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Janua Coeli' post='1507368' date='Apr 23 2008, 07:38 AM'][i]I knew I was feeling called to be a hermit, and not a "hermit in community" as the Carmelites describe themselves. Although they are called to a life of hermit-like silence, the Wolverhampton Carmel is probably similar to many OCD Carmels in that they don't have a lot of time alone with God. They spend a lot of time in community - reciting the Divine Office together, mental prayer twice a day in the choir together, Recreation twice a day, eating meals in common, and many other tasks during the day together. They are certainly hermits compared to active orders, but their life is not one of solitude, which I seem to need more.[/i]

O Mary, we trust Thee!

“At Carmel and at the Judgment, I am alone with God”. A few thoughts on what the hermit aspect of Discalced Carmelite life means to me.
In Carmel, we live as “hermits in community”, individually and collectively loving God and giving ourselves to Him Who is our All. The eremitical side of our life is fostered by solitude and silence, aided on a practical level by the observance of Teresian enclosure and a determined withdrawal from the world, including the limiting of personal contacts with people outside. Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working. There is no common workroom, although at times they may need to work together on tasks that require collaboration. This solitude, even though it may not be perfect, is a great help for maintaining the silence and for prayer. Furthermore, sisters may only speak when required to do so by necessity or by reason of their duties, unless they have special permission to talk in response to some practical need.
According to the Rule and Constitutions handed down from St. Teresa, there is a certain number of community acts performed during the day. The community together pray the Divine Office, participate in the celebration of the Eucharist, spend their two hours of silent prayer/meditation (normally in choir), share their meals and hold recreation in common. These common acts do not, however, take anything away from the eremitical aspect of the life or prevent one from preserving an interior solitude and silence. As St. John of the Cross exhorts, one is to “live as though he were alone in the monastery”. (One explicit way of putting this into practice is striving deliberately not to notice what others are doing, or whether they are present at community activities, or what they are eating in the refectory, etc.) In fact, the cenobitical side of Carmel provides structure, stability and support for living a deep interior life, as well as offering opportunities to practise mortification, renunciation of one’s self-will, charity, patience, generosity and all the other virtues. Practising obedience in even little things is also a safeguard for knowing that one is doing the Will of God and keeping a proper balance in, for example, one’s penitential practices.
Being a hermit is not just about being physically alone (though normally that helps!). It is more an interior “living apart”, continually in God’s presence, and demands a detachment from everything that is not Him. At times one can feel an intense loneliness and isolation, even when surrounded by others, and it is only human to occasionally feel the need for affection, support and encouragement. In Carmel, not only are we not able to phone or e-mail a friend to chat to when things are difficult or we would like to express our feelings about something, we do not generally talk about personal stuff with our sisters either. And this can be very hard, especially when one is going through a particularly rough patch. (Some exception, of course, is made during formation, when one usually has more opportunities for sharing things with one’s novice mistress or some other sister. And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need. Nevertheless, in practice it is frequently the case that when one really feels the need to talk, it is either not an appropriate time or the sister you have permission to talk to is otherwise engaged; and so one somehow just has to cope on one’s own, with the grace of God.)
Ordinarily, in due course, there is a gradual stripping away of all external supports and one is left truly “alone with God alone”. It is a valuable time for growing in self-knowledge but often distressing. There is no one to turn to, nowhere to go or to hide, no outlet for expressing one’s inner pain, fear and confusion, only Him. As we read in the psalms: “O where can I go from your spirit, or where can I flee from your face? If I climb the heavens, you are there. If I lie in the grave, you are there.” (Ps 138:7-8) In this dreadful solitude one is thrown back on God as one’s only security and support. And even He may seem to have abandoned or rejected you, so that you are left in darkness, emptiness and desolation, with apparently nothing to hold on to. At times like these it can often be a great consolation to have others sitting/kneeling near you in choir praying. One learns to value the hidden, prayerful support and example of other community members who are persevering in the same life, going through similar struggles and experiencing similar joys and sorrows. One also finds oneself turning even more to the saints and angels for help, especially Our Blessed Lady. She is a beautiful example of a hermit soul as she “treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart” while at the same time being fully committed to the needs of her family and her daily household duties.
In conclusion, may I just say how grateful I am for the tremendous privilege of being given a Carmelite vocation, however imperfectly I actually live it. I know that others may be drawn to an even more solitary life but, for me, Carmel is the place where I can be very deeply a hermit even while being part of a busy sisterly community. And should the path to union with God seem, at times, fraught with difficulties and desolation, deep down, below the level of feelings, there is a real joy and that true and enduring peace promised by Jesus, a peace that the world cannot give.[/quote]


What truly beautiful feelings. It is wonderful that you have found what you need in your community and that your vocation is so clear to you. These are graces for which no price can be paid. I'm probably hyper sensitive these days, but your post seemed a little critical of what I had posted previously, as if my seeking more solitude was a failing of some kind, by not being able to find this in Carmel - but in the interests of the well being of this forum, I am going to reply as if nothing personal was meant, and that you are just sharing your own joy at your life in Carmel - ok? I realize too that I might have sounded as if I were criticizing Wolverhampton because I wanted more solitude, and your post might have been a "defense" of what you see as the Carmelite way of life. I certainly did not intend to disparage WV because I love them there very much, but what I post here is intended to help others in their discernment. The fact is that I [u]did [/u]find the lack of solitude (time physically alone) to be an impediment to my vocation within that community. The Terre Haute Carmel, for example, does their 2 hours of mental prayer alone instead of in community and they have one hermit day per week. This is the type of thing that I needed but did not have - not everyone needs this or indeed even wants it! One sister at WV said she didn't want a hermit day and would gladly give it up to someone else!

What your post does prove to me that each of us has to find the right "home" in religious life, so that we also feel what you do. But what is the perfect community for one person might not be so for another. We have to remember that we are all individuals and that is why discernment is so important, and why I now think that live-ins are a very good idea. It is true that a person might do a live-in and then decide not to return. The previous Prioress where I was did not like live-ins because she said that women who did them usually didn't return to enter. But how much better for everyone if the incompatibility is discovered prior to the "marriage" so that there is no divorce! As the new Prioress wrote to me... "We are all seeking the will of God." and I say "Amen" to that. And this also points out to me that the Prioress herself is a big factor in the spiritual and emotional health of the monastery, so it is a good thing that Rome prefers to have the Prioress change after a maximum of 2 terms of office (6 years). When one is in office for too long, I think they might begin to see [u]their [/u]will as the will of God instead of the other way around! I admit that I could be all wrong about my views on this - since the Benedictines have a superior for her life (I think) but this is a whole different topic anyway!

I too love the part in the Constitutions that you quoted: "Within the monastery itself, when the sisters are not with the community or occupied with house duties, they remain in their cell, praying, studying or working." I did not find this to be true during my brief time in my particular community, since every moment of the day was scheduled and time in the cell was discouraged - but each of us experiences life differently, so it is no wonder that we also experience religious life differently, even if we are within the same community.

You also state that "And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need." That sounds wonderful and I am glad it is true for you, but speaking of my own situation, I was denied permission to speak with another sister during a time of crisis and on several other occasions as well. I was denied access to some books I had requested and I was also denied access to a regular spiritual director, having been told that there "weren't enough priests" available and other various reasons. I believe that this lack of spiritual guidance was a very strong factor in my being unable to persevere in my vocation. After months and months of pleading, a spiritual director was finally located for me just two weeks before I left, but by that time I had pretty much started thinking that this was not the community for me. Having said that, I want to add that there is nothing to say that it wouldn't be the perfect community for someone else, since we are all so different. There was a lot of love in the community and many very holy sisters (and some rather "unholy" ones as well - but that can be found in any community! ).

Your post is beautiful though and it describes the almost romantic ideal of religious life - so you must be very grateful to God for allowing you to experience such a thing. Keep us all in your prayers please, especially those of us who haven't found our "homes" yet. God bless you.

Edited April 23, 2008 by nunsense

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1507471' date='Apr 23 2008, 02:34 PM']You also state that "And at any stage one can always speak with the Prioress or ask permission to speak to a sister in answer to a spiritual need." That sounds wonderful and I am glad it is true for you, but speaking of my own situation, I was denied permission to speak with another sister during a time of crisis and on several other occasions as well. I was denied access to some books I had requested and I was also denied access to a regular spiritual director, having been told that there "weren't enough priests" available and other various reasons. I believe that this lack of spiritual guidance was a very strong factor in my being unable to persevere in my vocation. After months and months of pleading, a spiritual director was finally located for me just two weeks before I left, but by that time I had pretty much started thinking that this was not the community for me.[/quote]

To be deprived of Books and SD's..How Horrible! It makes me sad.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1507500' date='Apr 23 2008, 11:11 AM']To be deprived of Books and SD's..How Horrible! It makes me sad.[/quote]

praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.

[puellapaschalis]

Nunsense, I have nothing to add, except a thank you for being so courageously open. Not only here on Phatmass but also in your life - you've been halfway round the world and back - twice - trying to figure out what God wants of you and where He's going to lead you next. It's quite inspiring to see

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1507514' date='Apr 23 2008, 03:25 PM']praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying, and I do agree with what you have said. I just wish there could have more of a balance for you..I did not make that clear..sorry.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1507538' date='Apr 23 2008, 12:15 PM']I understand what you are saying, and I do agree with what you have said. I just wish there could have more of a balance for you..I did not make that clear..sorry.[/quote]

No, no, no - you have been kindness itself. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't give the impression that there was a failing in the community. Despite my apparent criticisms, I do know that what didn't work for me, might be the very things that make this community a "home" for someone else. So I try to be so careful whenever I say something that might sound like a value judgment. I do love them very much and wouldn't want to do any harm to them by turning away vocations. I pray for vocations for them all the time!

I just want to make sure also that others discern carefully through visits and live-ins, so they don't end up feeling as I have done, like a failure. I am slowly getting over this feeling, with Our Lord's help, but it has been particularly hard, especially since Father General basically told me in advance that I wouldn't succeed and he has been proven right. And since my latest attempts at getting a SD have resulted in another important (in terms of authority) priest [u]also [/u]telling me that I shouldn't even try for religious life - well, I have had to fight a lot of temptation to despair over any kind of a vocation. But, and here is the important thing - all of this has shown me that nothing matters except my relationship with Our Lord, and in trying to do His will, whatever that may end up being. So, in my weakness, He is strong - what else could I ask for?

Thank you for your kindness. That is one of the reasons I love phatmass so much - everyone has always been so kind to me here.

Edited April 23, 2008 by nunsense

[Nunsense]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1507534' date='Apr 23 2008, 12:10 PM']Nunsense, I have nothing to add, except a thank you for being so courageously open. Not only here on Phatmass but also in your life - you've been halfway round the world and back - twice - trying to figure out what God wants of you and where He's going to lead you next. It's quite inspiring to see [/quote]

You are so sweet, but of course you must realize that my being "open" has nothing to do with courage at all. I am just "compulsively self-disclosing", which means, of course, that I spend entirely way too much time focusing on my self!

The only good thing about my self-centeredness however, is that perhaps in all my ramblings, there might occasionally be some information that might be helpful to someone else who is discerning religious life. It's kind of like manure being used to feed growing plants !

And God has been so good to me and so kind - I really would love to please Him. Finding out what He wants however, is another thing entirely. One of the topics that Rosalind Moss is going to cover in her talk on Saturday is "God's Will for You: How to Know It". Boy, oh boy - if I can learn anything at all from just that one topic, the trip to Georgia will have been worth it! Pray me on!

And thank you so much for being so sweet.

Edited April 23, 2008 by nunsense

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='nunsense' date='Apr 23 2008, 04:15 PM' post='1507568']
You are so sweet, but of course you must realize that my being "open" has nothing to do with courage at all. I am just "compulsively self-disclosing", which means, of course, that I spend entirely way too much time focusing on my self!

Nunsense,

When I first read puelapaschalis' recent post to you in this thread (the one where she compliments your openness), my reaction was SHE TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH. I was going to respond with a resounding (can typing resound??) HERE HERE, then I read your response. Please exucse me in advance as I do not want to disagree or discount your own feelings or sense of your own motivations but I do want to tell you that I find your openness in this thread completely and utterly REFRESHING, it's a balm to my own spirit. As the "youguns" say: YOU ROCK!

[EWIE]

Nunsense wrote..." I just wanted to make sure that I didn't give the impression that there was a failing in the community."

Even though, Carmel describes itself as a community of hermits, eremetic "alone time" is the last thing one will find in a Carmelite monastery. Every single miunute is scheduled.
I wonder if those who are seeking a more eremetic life style have looked to the Carthusian nuns? The scheduling there is more like supportive pillars rather than a collective togetherness.

Also when looking to a monastery in another country, one must take into consideration the cultural differences. They affect how a rule is interpreted and enfleshed.

[jkaands]

This post should be called hodgepodge because it is all over the place.

The so-called updated Carmels in the CCA --Carmelite Communities Associated--include several groups whose horaria appear to have addressed this problem. I know that various of y'all don't 'approve' of these groups but they are Carmelites nevertheless who updated after Vat II. What they appear to have done is adopted pick-up breakfasts and lunches so that one can maintain solitude and silence while eating; often have optional early morning prayer before starting formal prayers at 6-7AM, combine one recreation with a talking supper and the other as after lunch quiet time for hobby, talking with sister(s) or a nap; and saying Compline in their cells in private, so that after about 7-8 PM the evening is free in cell. Each community has the Carmelite two hours of silent prayer a day. I think that this sort of schedule would make for much more recollection, silence and solitude and much less regimentation. The Eldridge IA Carmel has many members from other Carmels.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict that one won't persevere in Carmel. Most don't, after all. And I think that advising one to 'give it up' is unwise. Better a community do that, and I think that most communities know better, as they've seen so many leave their community, enter and stay somewhere else. JPII canonized a Poor Clare nun from Palestine who was in and out of a number of monasteries before she finally settled in Palestine, now Israel--I forget her name.

Re SD's, Therese met a visiting SD to their community, who immediately read her heart. She implored Mere Gonzague, her superior, to see him as much as possible during his stay, and the Mere acquiesed, to a point, anyway. Therese, who could give spiritual direction and often did, appeared to benefit greatly from this.

I am frankly surprised at the restrictions you received in your Carmel, as it was obvious that you needed SOMEthing, but won't comment further. I will say that I thought it weird that you didn't have a live-in--I would think that would be [i]de rigeur [/i]in discerning an enclosed life.

[EWIE]

[quote name='jkaands' date='Apr 23 2008, 05:28 PM' post='1507759']
The so-called updated Carmels in the CCA --Carmelite Communities Associated--include several groups whose horaria appear to have addressed this problem. ... What they appear to have done is adopted pick-up breakfasts and lunches so that one can maintain solitude and silence while eating; often have optional early morning prayer before starting formal prayers at 6-7AM, combine one recreation with a talking supper and the other as after lunch quiet time for hobby, talking with sister(s) or a nap; and saying Compline in their cells in private

I am aware of the various changes to which you refer, however they still remain scheduled. They need to be for the sake of order in the community.
But eremetic prayer is nearly paralyzed by a fixed schedule.


BTW.....welcome to the ML.

[Saint Therese]

Have you ever looked into the Carthusians? Or perhaps the Trappists?
I made a short live in and was definitely discouraged from speaking with the prioress; but that was okay because we could speak with the Novice Mistress practically any time if needed. Perhaps this depends mostly on the community.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Saint Therese

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1507514' date='Apr 23 2008, 07:25 PM']praying4carmel - I was told that the "life itself" was the best teacher and I don't dispute this. If I had been stronger or more surrendered to God's will, then I am sure that I would have found all of the solace and direction that I needed within myself. I was also reminded several times that St Therese used Jesus as her SD - but without a lot of "alone time" there, I found it hard to rely only on His guidance. I do admit that the failing was within me, but that is perhaps why this community was not right for me. For someone else, it might have been the making of a saint. I don't want to judge a community for my failings - but would like to stress that proper discernment is most important.[/quote]

Annie, to be fair to yourself, I think that you [i]were[/i] strong and surrendered to God's will - otherwise you could never have gone from America to Singapore, and from Singapore to England, in search of your place in life. That takes a great act of courage. I am in the process of arranging a discernment visit to a community on the Continent, and even though it is cheaper to fly to this place than it is to go on a train to my English hometown I still feel quite nervous. As PP pointed out, crossing the world and immersing herself in a different culture, away from one's support network of friends, is not something a person undertakes lightly.

This isn't to say that the community's reluctance to provide you with a spiritual director or to give you permission to speak with that sister were 'failings' on their part. Just mistakes in judgement. Everybody makes such mistakes from time to time, and that doesn't mean that they've failed in some way. The community did not fail you, and you did not fail them. I hope that in time the false feelings of guilt and failure will pass. To look at the blessings: you have some practical experience of the religious life now, you have added a monastery of nuns to your group of special friends, and you have a much deeper sense of your calling in life that you wouldn't otherwise have had. For the nuns' part, they have received some insight into the particular needs of overseas postulants. That's not failure.

[Guest Janua Coeli]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1507471' date='Apr 23 2008, 06:34 PM']What truly beautiful feelings. It is wonderful that you have found what you need in your community and that your vocation is so clear to you. These are graces for which no price can be paid. I'm probably hyper sensitive these days, but your post seemed a little critical of what I had posted previously, as if my seeking more solitude was a failing of some kind, by not being able to find this in Carmel - but in the interests of the well being of this forum, I am going to reply as if nothing personal was meant, and that you are just sharing your own joy at your life in Carmel - ok? I realize too that I might have sounded as if I were criticizing Wolverhampton because I wanted more solitude, and your post might have been a "defense" of what you see as the Carmelite way of life. I certainly did not intend to disparage WV because I love them there very much, but what I post here is intended to help others in their discernment. The fact is that I [u]did [/u]find the lack of solitude (time physically alone) to be an impediment to my vocation within that community. The Terre Haute Carmel, for example, does their 2 hours of mental prayer alone instead of in community and they have one hermit day per week. This is the type of thing that I needed but did not have - not everyone needs this or indeed even wants it! One sister at WV said she didn't want a hermit day and would gladly give it up to someone else!

Your post is beautiful though and it describes the almost romantic ideal of religious life - so you must be very grateful to God for allowing you to experience such a thing. Keep us all in your prayers please, especially those of us who haven't found our "homes" yet. God bless you.[/quote]

O Mary, we trust Thee!

Dear nunsense,
Truly I did not intend to criticize what you had previously posted on Phatmass. And I was not, in all honesty, saying that your being unable to find enough physical solitude in Carmel was a failing of any sort. (You are [u]not[/u] a failure but very courageous, open and obviously much loved.) Indeed, nothing personal was meant by my comments. I was merely trying to bring up a few other issues that are involved in the hermit aspect of Carmelite life and convey another way of looking at it, so that discerners might get a more complete picture. I also hope that I did not come across as being too defensive. I guess I am just disappointed that you did not find all that you were hoping for from your Carmelite experience. Maybe you will in another community? Certainly Carmels (following the same Rule and Constitutions) will differ in how much time sisters are physically alone, and individuals also differ in the amount of absolute solitude they get on best with. I simply wanted to mention that I think it is possible to live as a hermit in a more interior way, without necessarily being on one’s own as much as one would like. And also that there can sometimes be periods when one is very glad to have others around, e.g. when prayer is very difficult or one is experiencing great interior suffering or fears of various kinds.
I will finish there, nunsense, though there is more I might have said in response to your various posts. I think I should probably leave that to others who are more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject. Know that, at any rate, I will definitely keep you and the other discerners in prayer, and pray that you will find your real “home” in religious life, according to the Will of God. May He bless you and fill you with His Spirit of Love and Truth. Please pray for me, too. As you know, Carmel lived in practice is not as easy or romantic as it might sound when one tries to put it into words.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Janua Coeli' post='1514993' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:43 AM']O Mary, we trust Thee!

Dear nunsense,
Truly I did not intend to criticize what you had previously posted on Phatmass. And I was not, in all honesty, saying that your being unable to find enough physical solitude in Carmel was a failing of any sort. (You are [u]not[/u] a failure but very courageous, open and obviously much loved.) Indeed, nothing personal was meant by my comments. I was merely trying to bring up a few other issues that are involved in the hermit aspect of Carmelite life and convey another way of looking at it, so that discerners might get a more complete picture. I also hope that I did not come across as being too defensive. I guess I am just disappointed that you did not find all that you were hoping for from your Carmelite experience. Maybe you will in another community? Certainly Carmels (following the same Rule and Constitutions) will differ in how much time sisters are physically alone, and individuals also differ in the amount of absolute solitude they get on best with. I simply wanted to mention that I think it is possible to live as a hermit in a more interior way, without necessarily being on one’s own as much as one would like. And also that there can sometimes be periods when one is very glad to have others around, e.g. when prayer is very difficult or one is experiencing great interior suffering or fears of various kinds.
I will finish there, nunsense, though there is more I might have said in response to your various posts. I think I should probably leave that to others who are more experienced and knowledgeable on the subject. Know that, at any rate, I will definitely keep you and the other discerners in prayer, and pray that you will find your real “home” in religious life, according to the Will of God. May He bless you and fill you with His Spirit of Love and Truth. Please pray for me, too. As you know, Carmel lived in practice is not as easy or romantic as it might sound when one tries to put it into words.[/quote]


Janua Coeli - no offence taken. All any of us want is to love God and to love each other, and fortunately there are many ways to do this. Do not be disappointed for me that I did not find what I wanted in Carmel because I am not sad about it. Although I have had sad feelings from time to time, in the end, the will of God is all that matters, and it seems that He has other plans for me (see the topic about the Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope and Rosalind Moss). When I look at what God has done in Rosalind's life, I can see that He is able to use everything that we bring to Him, even our so-called "failures". And of course the completely ironic thing is that God has used my love of solitude to bring me to this point in life where it looks as if I will have to be giving up my solitude for an more active apostolate - go figure! So, I can assure you that I am totally enjoying the solitude I have right now and trying to soak up every last minute of it. Sometimes I wonder why I don't just stay where I am and enjoy the hermit-like life I have been given - but as we know, God's calls are not easy to resist. As Jeremiah said:

[i]You have seduced me Yahweh
and I have let myself be seduced;
you have overpowered me:
you were the stronger.[/i]

Although I can agree with you about the value of community prayer, especially as a help for those who need it. There is a time for this of course, but I don't think I will ever be someone who prefers praying in community to praying in private. The intimacy of being with Him alone is something my soul craves - but that doesn't mean I don't see the great beauty in worshipping as a family in the Church, or that I don't enjoy praying the Divine Office in community - I do. And the Mass on feasts and solemnities is always so beautiful, especially when there is music and singing, and I must say that at the Easter Vigil I was blown away by the beauty of the bi-lingual Mexican-American Mass I attended - and there were just so many people there! All these group activities are like spending time with the family - wonderful and fulfilling. They are not, however, the same thing as spending time alone with one's Beloved.

Sometimes I wonder if I am just weird (comparatively speaking) because I don't see prayer the same way as most other people do. I recently read a comment from someone about their community, and she described their prayer as very private because although they do it in the choir, they can come and go as they please, and sit where they want (we used to do this during Exposition and it was very lovely) -- BUT, and this is the difference for me -- as beautiful as this is - it is NOT the solitude I am talking about - it is not my definition of "private" prayer. To me, private prayer is when I am TOTALLY alone with God. Contemplation is not "praying while one works" or even with other people around - although technically this is possible, and I will even concede that this might be the "greater" or "better" way (if one must compare). But for me, contemplation is totally losing oneself in God, and this is so intimate, so private that, for me, it can only be done when totally alone. I don't know about anyone else, but in the presence of God, I cry! The ecstasy and joy of being in His embrace is just too personal a thing to want others around - after all, it is the intimacy of the Soul and her Bridegroom!

That being said, St Catherine of Siena was called to an active apostolate after many years as a hermit in her house, so this gives me hope that although I feel like a hermit by nature, if God is calling me to something more active now, I will be able to do it, by His grace; and that He will find some way to provide for me the time alone that I need with Him.

My time at WV Carmel was beautiful. It was a time of foundation and growth and learning to live in community, and I will always love the sisters there - so the time was not wasted. God doesn't waste anything that is offered to Him in love. So, I will still encourage others to enter Carmel, and I always pray for vocations to WV because of my great love for them.

Thank you so much for your own insights, Janua - I am sure that they have been so valuable for others here. God bless you.

Annie

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1515098' date='Apr 30 2008, 01:43 PM']after all, it is the intimacy of the Soul and her Bridegroom![/quote]

Nunsense, you write so passionately and sensitively about this subject, it seems to me your desire is truly born of love and I hope that Jesus will not leave you completely without this consolation even in the active apostalate. I don't, of course, know His mind or intentions for you, He reveals them to you and I believe to certain others in your life who He chooses, in His wisdom, as "companions" or "guides" for you...but I can't imagine that he would forever keep this from you simply because you follow Him in "active" life.

I'm not saying that anything you have said makes me believe you think that either...just a little thought/encouragement for you that Jesus knows your heart and desires to give you those desires born of love in you.

Imagine how sweet will be the times when you can return to Him in solitude and contemplation, filled with the joy of knowing you have followed Him unselfishly into "action".

May He give you His Peace.

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='nunsense' date='Apr 30 2008, 02:43 PM' post='1515098']



Although I can agree with you about the value of community prayer, especially as a help for those who need it. All these group activities are like spending time with the family - wonderful and fulfilling. They are not, however, the same thing as spending time alone with one's Beloved.

Sometimes I wonder if I am just weird (comparatively speaking) because I don't see prayer the same way as most other people do.

[quote]

Annie, YOU ARE NOT WEIRD! I full understand what you are saying...

You are correct..it is Not The same..to have community prayer and be alone with your Beloved...I do not see prayer in the same way that others do, either, However, in this discernment process..I am learning rapidly how to have harmony in my own personal prayer life. I understand that I will not always be able to be "alone with the Alone" all the time. However, He fills me and works thru me in a new way. I feel stretched..

For me, and this is just my experience, not a judgement on yours in any way, I found that I was becoming somewhat attached to spending time with Him Alone to the point that it was exclusive to any prayer time that I had. As St. Teresa talks about we can become too attached to raptures and feelings etc. experiences..Though I love spending time with the Lord, I wanted Him to fill me so that I could be there in service to Others. This meant re-learning intercessory prayer, centering prayer, etc. I knew when I moved into the desert so to Speak I was getting somewhere..I trust in my Dark Nights because I know He is with me, even when He does not feel anywhere present.

I do not look for outcomes any more in prayer, rather i trust in Him to have listened to my prayer, and to answer in His way. I am still attacked by evil forces sometimes..in other words completely inappropriate thoughts come at inappropriate times, but now I say: "Lord, Holy spirit, & Michael help" and I don't attach to the thought or fight it I just don't go with it.. and it's then gone..so I know someone is listening to me!

I know that we all believe in your Vocation 100% here on Phatmass. However, I would ask you to take a leap of faith, and prepare to be suprised...your answer may not lie in Carmel....He may have something completely different in mind for you....Where your intimacy will grow even deeper....it may or may not be a hermit order..or another type of order...

I only say this because His answer in my Journey is so suprising to me..it's taking into account the whole of my personality...I am continually suprised and awe struck...I have no words.

It's your journey and your story, and I respect and Love that. I have 100% confidence in you and our Lord to lead you to where you are meant to be.
I just wanted to share my suprises so that you did not feel weird or bad. This is all a part of a process..and it takes time..How wonderful that you still have a Vocation! Remember that many would have bailed out by now. You have shown great courage and Love.

Blessings
+
P4C