Lying To Nazis

[BeenaBobba]

If I felt confident that the Gestapo wouldn't be able to find my Jewish friends in my home because they were hidden extremely well, I'd try to skirt the question by saying something like, "If you want to know, come look." But that'd only be the case if I were sure they wouldn't be able to find them. Otherwise, I'd definitely lie to them.

Edited March 20, 2008 by BeenaBobba

[Justin86]

Hide them someplace you don't consider your "home". Then it's not technically a lie.

[dairygirl4u2c]

mrcatholickid would say your hypo is unrealistic, and he also thinks a situation whre you'd have to lie to save a life either does not exist, or has not been adequatley demonstrated.

ie such that you could reserve information, or take the heat for telling the truth or refusing to answer... i think he'd say.
that's compltely counter intuitive and unheard of, so i'm pretty sure he's wrong. but haven't gotten a good reply back to him yet.

[SanctitasDeo]

Yes, I would lie to them.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1480412' date='Mar 19 2008, 11:20 PM']mrcatholickid would say your hypo is unrealistic, and he also thinks a situation whre you'd have to lie to save a life either does not exist, or has not been adequatley demonstrated.

ie such that you could reserve information, or take the heat for telling the truth or refusing to answer... i think he'd say.
that's compltely counter intuitive and unheard of, so i'm pretty sure he's wrong. but haven't gotten a good reply back to him yet.[/quote]

I know for a fact that people have been asked questions like this by the Nazis. On an EWTN program, for example, one nun admitted to lying.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, some people would say "no" but insist you don't know you're hiding them cause you can't know they are there right hten and there as you don't see them.
that's pretty much lying though.

and you could't say yes. and you couldn't say maybe or i don't know as that'd tip them off.

and others have said that thing abotu EWTN, so i'm pretty sure you're right.

[dairygirl4u2c]

cue cmother's "the ends don't justify the means. ever." assertion.

actually, in cases where it's gray like this, she's more prone to not say anything.
like many who hide behind that statement, she apparently uses it to suit her agenda only, and avoids it when it doesn't.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1480432' date='Mar 19 2008, 11:36 PM']cue cmother's "the ends don't justify the means. ever." assertion.[/quote]

Well, objectively, lying is always wrong, but I think that most people would lie in this instance regardless of whether it's wrong or not. You know, even though lying is objectively wrong, I'm not sure if someone being dishonest in this instance would be guilty of committing a sin. Lying under duress or in an extremely stressful situation could somehow diminish the role one's will would take in choosing sin. I've also seen it argued by moral theologians that it wouldn't necessarily be considered a lie, since the Nazis were not worthy of knowing the truth in this instance. But yeah, it does seem to be a gray area. I'm not 100% sure of how sinful this would or wouldn't be.

[SanctitasDeo]

I'm almost surprise that no one has mentioned Rahab yet. I didn't think of her until just now, but Joshua 2 (and 6) seems relevant. Seems the Lord was okay with that situation.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1480412' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:20 PM']mrcatholickid would say your hypo is unrealistic, and he also thinks a situation whre you'd have to lie to save a life either does not exist, or has not been adequatley demonstrated.

ie such that you could reserve information, or take the heat for telling the truth or refusing to answer... i think he'd say.
that's compltely counter intuitive and unheard of, so i'm pretty sure he's wrong. but haven't gotten a good reply back to him yet.[/quote]This only shows to me that you have still refused to read or consider my posts, which other users have admitted this appears to be the case. I am happy although that the presentation of a solid argument has left you mystified, possibly this will lead you to actually reading and considering what I wrote before. Considering everything you proposed about me, even my screen name, is wrong. All respect intended, but to be blunt, when you are prepared to actually address my arguments, the discussion is waiting at ( [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77022&st=0"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...=77022&st=0[/url] ).

[T-Bone _]

I don't consider it a lie if someone asks a question to which they have no right expect an honest answer.. (ie, If it's none of their business and they'll use the answer for evil purposes.)

[Aloysius]

exactly, which is why we must focus on the means itself and ask "is the means good" rather than "is the end good'

obviously the end result of saving the life of the hiding Jew would be good. but that's not the question... the question is, is deceiving the Nazi Officer about the whereabouts of the Jew in and of itself good?

The answer is yes. Whenever possible, that deception should come in the form of "evasive action" or "mental reservation" to make it technically true... when not possible, one must pay honor to the truth inside one's head, because on an objective metaphysical plane there is always damage done when the truth is sinned against.

if it comes to it, say:
"no there are no Jews here" while inside the privacy of your own mind you think "because they are human beings, and you define a Jew as not being a human being so I will work with your definition Mr. German Officer dirtbag"

the point is that objective evil is done when the truth is not adhered to, so all efforts must be made in such situations to A) not give information to someone who does not deserve the information and B) do so in a way that as much as possible does not damage your natural honesty and connection to the truth.

the reason the ends don't justify the means is because an evil means will always do damage, even if some other good comes out of it. If it does damage to nothing else, it does damage to yourself. A lie damages your honesty, always. So in such dire circumstances, you must make all efforts to preserve your inner honesty.

[Deb]

Yes and I would enjoy it.

[kenrockthefirst]

Of course.

[realtalk.thm]

Christians. If this question was possed to Christ, what do you think would have been his answer. I wish i could just become a better mirror of christ.
















----the moon does not give as much light as the sun, but when its a full moon its quite a sight to be in the country---

[Deb]

[quote name='realtalk.thm' post='1480604' date='Mar 20 2008, 10:17 AM']Christians. If this question was possed to Christ, what do you think would have been his answer. I wish i could just become a better mirror of christ.
















----the moon does not give as much light as the sun, but when its a full moon its quite a sight to be in the country---[/quote]

Jesus was incapable of lying. He would have just stared at them. I think he might have smoted them too.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Deb

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1480587' date='Mar 20 2008, 02:13 PM']if it comes to it, say:
"no there are no Jews here"[/quote]

Perhaps "There are no Jewish people here" would be less ambigous. Or be British/American and carpet-bomb them instead.

[desertwoman]

If I had answered the door they would have shot me on the spot.

[prose]

Why does this question come up on here over and over again?

Is someone having a problem with Nazis that we should know about?

Edited March 20, 2008 by prose

[Cipher]

Theoretically, I would indeed lie to them. Still, I know that it's easy enough to answer a hypothetical question from the safety of our homes and jobs where it's easy to wax bravado. When you're actually faced with a quick decision that could potentially save another life (or, inversely, cost the lives of you, the person you are hiding, his family and your family), I challenge anyone to say that they would still lie without the slightest hesitation.